re: Women in Combat Arms: The Master Thread

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I'm not trying to be contrarian. My intention is to focus the analysis so that the thread produces something concrete besides war stories.

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I'll write up some stuff tomorrow evening. I don't know that there is a plan of action that will sway the political process enough to matter, but it will be good practice and probably a lot of fun.

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I'll write up some stuff tomorrow evening. I don't know that there is a plan of action that will sway the political process enough to matter, but it will be good practice and probably a lot of fun.

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The USASOC leadership needs to get on board and keep this madness out of USASOC. If the USASOC commander is too much of a weenie then maybe the Commander, 1st SF Command can step up.

I know for sure that Trump will replace Carter and Mabus, but what about the generals and admirals who went along with this shite?

Can they be replaced also? Should they? (I think so)

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The case against women in combatThis it?

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Didn't read the entire thread, but this quote from your link is unsettling.

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Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey ordered that if the services wish to be granted a waiver they must prove why women are not capable of performing the job and also prove why standards cannot be lowered to allow them in.

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That line of thinking scares the hell out of me.

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I'm not trying to be contrarian. My intention is to focus the analysis so that the thread produces something concrete besides war stories.

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My resource argument is concrete

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Israel has one mixed sex infantry battalion that is glorified border police on the Sinai border. They were, notably, not sent to fight in 2006 in Lebanon or in 2014 in Gaza. They have seen all of exactly two incidents of "combat" where Sinai border insurgents attacked them with suicide bombs.

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I know he's playing Devil's Advocate, too, but I'll chime in on this one. One of my favorite points: The 2 armies with the most significant institutional experience with women in direct, traditional combat roles are the Russian Army (as successors to the Soviet Red Army) and the IDF, and neither continue the practice in any significant way.

Why do you suppose that is?

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It is a strong point

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No, it isn't. The opposition has tricked themselves into believing it is, but that doesn't make it so. There is no such thing as a right to serve. Period. We don't need someone to coddle these "leaders." We need someone to tell them how it is and that if they don't like it, they can retire.

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We will have to explain to civilians why "meeting the standards" should not be the end of their thinking on this topic. For example, the standards aren't really being met; the unit cohesion problems, even if the standards ARE met. 

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We can try, but it won't work. They couldn't give a single frick about equal opportunity. They want equal outcomes. It's already happening in the POG units and any one that thinks this will be any different is fooling themselves.

On the topic of women built like brick shithouses, one thing that isn't recognized about that is how prevalent steroids are in both sports and the fitnesd industry. Go on to any Instagram Fitness Model's site or to any big Crossfit competition and it's a guarantee that she is at least taking anavar and possibly minstrol or even low dose test. In sports steroids are so widespread that it's easier to assume an athlete is using until they prove they aren't.

How does this apply to women in combat arms? Well the above women are always used as examples of women who could pass the standards. This is bullshite because these same women would not have access to the gear they use during any boot camp or extended deployment in any shithole around the world. Further, I believe the penalties for gear usage are quite severe in the military anyway (someone correct me on this one if I am wrong since I am not military). So basically these SJW idiots are using literally enhanced women as examples of people who can pass the standards.

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Champagne

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I'll play along

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Let's start by laying out the most prominent arguments in FAVOR of females in the Infantry and other Combat Arms.

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These arguments aren't PROMINENT, they're nothing more than mental gymnastics and made up arguments to defend their desired outcome. They decided which outcome they wanted, then crafted well worded arguments that sound good on TV to support it without any data backing up their arguments. In fact, there was mountains of data and thousands of years of human history going against their desired outcomes.

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1) Other countries do it with no problem. Example: Israel.

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Wrong, been debunked many times on this board. I'd point to Abu's and Ace's arguments in this thread on that topic.

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2) All military personnel should have an equal and fair chance for promotion to the highest pay grades. The Combat Arms branches traditionally offer the best opportunities for high pay grade promotion. As such, female military personnel should be allowed into the Combat Arms.

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You know what else traditionally offers an equal and fair chance at promotion? Physical Fitness. And we're talking about putting women in jobs where physical fitness is at the very top of core competencies. Make the physical fitness standards the exact same across the board, without modifying or lowering standards of course because everyone promised that wouldn't happen, then we can talk.

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3) The military should reflect our society. We have females in the highest positions of power in the civilian world, so, the military should be the same way.

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Says who? And why do they say that? Where did this idea even come from? I want someone to tell me exactly what data they have to support this argument and why it works other than it sounds really good in a soundbite. The fact is that our military hasn't ever reflected society as a whole. If we were truly interested in having a military that reflected our society we'd just reinstitute the draft.

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4) Many military academy grads who made General Officer would like their children to be able to follow in their footsteps. If the General has a daughter instead of a son, his child won't have an equal chance to follow in Dad's footsteps.

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This one's easy. Go frick yourself General.

While all of us in this thread who are veterans or still on AD recognize the fool's errand that is integration of women into combat units, isn't this a symptom of a much larger problem in civ/mil/elected official relations?

If my memory is correct Duncan Hunter and maybe Tom Cotten were the only vocal opponents of this integration effort. Hunter in particular was one of the few to call out Mabus's childish dismissal of the real data the Marine Corps collected on unit performance and data collected on disparities on throughput needed in schools to make similiar number of male vs female service members.

This is a long post, but the same attitudes which allow people to play SJW also result in our forces being used without proper justification, endstate planning, and realization of costs (in blood and money) of using military force.

I fear our military is becoming so separated from the populace that a BEF in France 1914/1940 situation is becoming a possibility. The downside of an isolated, professional force is a country that isn't conscious of what it is capable of and meant to do.