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re: Who here actually believes Russia helped Trump?
Posted on 12/12/16 at 11:52 am to More&Les
Posted on 12/12/16 at 11:52 am to More&Les
quote:
Does it matter? I say no. The fact that the DNC was into all types of frickery is the problem, not who exposed them.
Sigh. They're totally separate problems. I'm pretty amazed if you really don't think it's significant that a state actor hacked a rival nation's political party and put out the information during the election cycle while simultaneously making their preference for the result clear. We're just on totally different wavelengths if you don't think that is a significant geopolitical event.
quote:
Remind me though, wasn't the Obama administration threatening and boasting about carrying out cyber attacks on foreign countries not too long ago???
I'm sure we did before Russia, and I think you're referring to statements during this cycle where we openly talked about cyber retaliation.
So what's your point here? If the US engages in high level hacking and dissemination of information during the midst of a hotly-contested election in Russia or elsewhere, that would also be a major geopolitical event.
I just don't see why you guys can't/choose not to distinguish between whether something is notable/newsworthy/important and whether it is what the MSM claims it to be. There is no gotcha here, if you come back and say "ok, in a vacuum I agree that Russia hacking the DNC and then getting involved in its release is a pretty big deal" I'm not going to jump out of the bushes and go "hahaha Trump is a russian plant, everything CNN says is correct!"
1
Posted on 12/12/16 at 11:54 am to Pettifogger
quote:Have we seen any evidence to prove this?
I'm pretty amazed if you really don't think it's significant that a state actor hacked a rival nation's political party
Posted on 12/12/16 at 11:56 am to Jbird
quote:
Have we seen any evidence to prove this?
See my other posts. My arguments are premised on the temporary acceptance of this as true. I acknowledged in my first post in this thread that I wasn't sure either way.
The one time I don't include the caveat y'all are all over it
Posted on 12/12/16 at 11:57 am to Hawkeye95
Wait. You guys told me there was nothing incriminating in all those emails. If true, how could they sway an election?
Posted on 12/12/16 at 11:58 am to Pettifogger
quote:
In isolation, can you really tell me you don't think it matters if a country that often opposes American action hacks our domestic political parties
If it exposes corruption at the highest levels as it did here I think we owe them a thank you.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:05 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
When have I ever stuck up for Obama?
I believe you and your black counterpart stuck up for Obama a crap ton.
Most especially the Iran deal.This post was edited on 12/12/16 at 12:06 pm
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:06 pm to cajunangelle
quote:
I believe you and your black counterpart stuck up for Obama a crap ton. Most especially the Iran deal.
link me to any support I gave to the Iran deal
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:06 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
The one time I don't include the caveat y'all are all over it
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:07 pm to Pettifogger
Look at the fervor from the left to discredit Trump's victory and sow seeds of doubt among the electors then ask yourself who is really trying to influence this election.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:09 pm to DelU249
quote:
Give me a fact that's just lying around...just one that doesn't require me to take someone's word blindly
DNC's emails were hacked and released
John Podesta's emails were hacked and released
Russia hackers are behind large scale hacks (such as citibank)
Putin accused clinton of meddling in russian affairs
manafort, trumps former campaign manager, has ties to the Yanukovych, a pro russian ukrainian politician
Guccifer 2.0 claimed to be behind the DNC hacks.
Emails between Guccier 2.0 and the hill had metadata in russian
Julian Assange had a tv show on RT, which is a state owned russian media outlet.
And pretty much every expert that has commented on it has said the russians played a role
Its not rocket science to put this together and come to the belief that russia is behind the attacks. Is it enough to support a thorough investigation? You bet your arse it is.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:10 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
Look at the fervor from the left to discredit Trump's victory and sow seeds of doubt among the electors then ask yourself who is really trying to influence this election.
It's not mutually exclusive. Both the left and Russia (and plenty of other entities) can be interesting in swinging the election.
Their importance, IMO, is categorized by how big the entity is, how much influence they actually have, and their motivation.
I'd say MSM may well be #1. But Russia is certainly newsworthy, especially when we get into motivation.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:11 pm to stout
quote:
Actually, the FBI has said there isn't any proof and that basically the CIA is working on conjecture.
This.
I hope people understand the reasons why both agencies see the same/similar evidence yet reach different conclusions.
The FBI is an investigative agency that relies on evidence to prove assertions with very high thresholds of certainty.
CIA, being an intelligence agency acts on speculative hunches or probabilities. They don't have to prove anything. Ever. They persuade through intelligence briefings for the purpose of communicating observations and possible motives.
One agency operates with a focus on proof. The other doesn't.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:11 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
Julian Assange had a tv show on RT, which is a state owned russian media outlet.
Add to this that Assange still has close ties to RT. I think he did a pretty highly publicized and exclusive interview/appearance on RT pretty late in the cycle.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:11 pm to Pettifogger
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:12 pm to fr33manator
I get it, it's amusing.
But we're not talking about anger, or at least I'm not.
But we're not talking about anger, or at least I'm not.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:14 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
'd say MSM may well be #1. But Russia is certainly newsworthy, especially when we get into motivation
Why is "Russia" newsworthy when we have no earthly idea if it was Russia?
Why is the media not pissing its pants over the fact that Dems stole the primary from Sanders. That's the real story of election influence revealed in all of this.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:20 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
Why is "Russia" newsworthy when we have no earthly idea if it was Russia?
See above. There is plenty of smoke that Russia was involved. If you think because there are questions as to the extent of Russia's involvement, and we should detract "importance" points from the story on account of that - okay, I buy it in theory.
But in truth, I think most of you guys are just so patterned to throw up defense after defense to MSM arguments that you just refuse to let any caveats into your positions that involve Trump. I thought Obama showing his arse on Bibi was a story. Russia staking out strong positions on the US election, possibly with underhanded activities to boot, is a story.
quote:
Why is the media not pissing its pants over the fact that Dems stole the primary from Sanders. That's the real story of election influence revealed in all of this.
Arguably it's the bigger story. But again, it's like there is no room with you guys to have discussions on the multiple facets of this stuff, even if we put up walls as not to connect them. I just don't get it.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:24 pm to Pettifogger
If the gov wants to launch an investigation into who hacked the DNC, that's fine.
That's not what's happening though. There is a full on misinformation campaign being launched to delegitimize Trump. There is talk of flipping electors or even using the court system to nullify the results. There is 24/7 talk of Russians influencing the election as if the results were somehow not the will of our people. It's horseshite and you know it.
That's not what's happening though. There is a full on misinformation campaign being launched to delegitimize Trump. There is talk of flipping electors or even using the court system to nullify the results. There is 24/7 talk of Russians influencing the election as if the results were somehow not the will of our people. It's horseshite and you know it.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:29 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
If the gov wants to launch an investigation into who hacked the DNC, that's fine.
That's not what's happening though. There is a full on misinformation campaign being launched to delegitimize Trump. There is talk of flipping electors or even using the court system to nullify the results. There is 24/7 talk of Russians influencing the election as if the results were somehow not the will of our people. It's horseshite and you know it.
At this point I just want to hear unsanitized, honest, not-campaign-mode opinions from Trump supporters. I'm not demanding you tell me you accept it's a big deal or not, but my motivation on this board is breaking up the "circle the wagons" approach that Trump people seem to have on this subject. I just still have a hard time believing that people are going to maintain some of these stances even if they're being completely honest and not concerned about it driving the MSM fervor.
Anyway, I probably agree with your stance on what is happening in the media, but this is an echo chamber so I put my efforts elsewhere.
Posted on 12/12/16 at 12:32 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
At this point I just want to hear unsanitized, honest, not-campaign-mode opinions from Trump supporters. I'm not demanding you tell me you accept it's a big deal or not, but my motivation on this board is breaking up the "circle the wagons" approach that Trump people seem to have on this subject. I just still have a hard time believing that people are going to maintain some of these stances even if they're being completely honest and not concerned about it driving the MSM fervor.
this will be the next four years. Deny, distract and marginalize.
Its going to be simultaneously fun and annoying.
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