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re: Where would we be as a country if 9/11 didn’t happen and we didnt go to war?
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:17 am to VirgilCaine
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:17 am to VirgilCaine
quote:
What does the country look like if the US never enters WW1
Not much different. A different conflict popped up a couple decades later that would have put us on our current trajectory, regardless of WW1 participation. American entry into the first war helped shorten it, but did very little to change the outcome. And Wilson’s participation in Versailles was all but pointless, as America didn’t subscribe to any of the international cooperative agreements post war.
A better question would have been how would we be different if WW1 never happened at all.
This post was edited on 12/19/17 at 10:22 am
1
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:17 am to Bison
quote:Where's this number come from? I only ask because when I look, I see some pretty wide ranging numbers.
if we had invested 7 trillion dollars
But to answer.
Some mentioned it already. Things like no patriot act, stuff like that.
But, the saddest part to me?
No fricking way THIS happens.
quote:
if we have a surplus of money
I do find it sad that on your list wasn't, "would we have balanced the budget, eliminated our debt and massively reduced taxes?
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:19 am to Lsuchs
quote:
The only reason they are not here is because we are there. Influence never stops spreading it just hits stalemates
Agreed.
It would have been devastating to American society (and really global society) had the US remained an isolationist country.
Soviet Stalinism and Islam are similar in the sense that they cannot be satisfied, they must continue to press outward.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:25 am to ILeaveAtHalftime
quote:
Not much different. A different conflict popped up a couple decades later that would have put us on our current trajectory, regardless of WW1 participation.
How much of WW2's existence should be attributed to WW1? Without WW1, does WW2 happen?
quote:
A better question would have been how would we be different if WW1 never happened at all.
This is a great question. The Ottoman Empire likely crumbles (opening the door to Sharia law).
The Czarist government in Russia seemed doomed before WW1 (too many revolutionary agitators), however much of the Russian Revolution is born out of the military joining the Workers Movement. So if the military does not feel the immense strain of the Eastern front, do they turn on the Czar?
Austria Hungary likely becomes part of the new German nation state (either peacefully or not).
Germany really was the trigger man at the turn of the 20th century. Crazy to think about how things would look different if they didn't pre-empt the Western Front by invading Belgium.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:25 am to Lsuchs
quote:By that logic, one would conclude that Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were good things for America, because it forced us to wield our power globally.
That makes no sense, especially when you consider we're the ones placing the puppet governments around the world.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m saying if it wasn’t us it would be Russia or China doing the same to us. That’s what the Cold War was. A geopolitical posturing race post WWII. If we are not involved in WWII it’s even easier for whoever would have come out on top
China was behind the 8 ball not really being an industrial power in WWII. Hence being boxed in by the victor in the post war power struggle.
I'm not on board with that at all.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:27 am to TX Tiger
quote:
By that logic, one would conclude that Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were good things for America, because it forced us to wield our power globally.
I don't think anyone considers those singular events as "good" (unless you're a gov spook who knows that they were false flags).
However, I think you can look at history and say that those events led to net positives for American society.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:27 am to TX Tiger
I’m not giving you my opinion on right or wrong, just my opinion on how things work.
Just imagine if the US cut our military budget, with it our assets, in half over night. Russia and China would immediately start expanding their presence / influence and the EU nations budgets would shoot up to counter. There is a stalemate / balance, it’s not “if we weren’t doing xyz” that xyz would no longer exist
Russia had bases being built in Cuba and nukes off the coast when we had our blockade. Those behind the scenes political battles are going on in their hemisphere not ours right now, we are fortunate. They will never end though, and and every inch given will be taken until it’s on our doorstep if we let it
IMO
Just imagine if the US cut our military budget, with it our assets, in half over night. Russia and China would immediately start expanding their presence / influence and the EU nations budgets would shoot up to counter. There is a stalemate / balance, it’s not “if we weren’t doing xyz” that xyz would no longer exist
Russia had bases being built in Cuba and nukes off the coast when we had our blockade. Those behind the scenes political battles are going on in their hemisphere not ours right now, we are fortunate. They will never end though, and and every inch given will be taken until it’s on our doorstep if we let it
IMO
This post was edited on 12/19/17 at 10:37 am
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:29 am to The Boat
Nice Clinton Blame game. Bush and his cronies lied but hey it's Clinton's fault.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:31 am to VirgilCaine
quote:
What does the country look like if the US never enters WW1?
WW1? I'm not sure by how much. The actual war, America didn't do a whole lot. It was already starting to wind down. Certainly not like WWII.
That said, no push for the League of Nations and then not having the US within it? I mean, WWII occurred because Hitler was able to rile up the Germans over war concessions and the Depression. Japan went to war over natural resources and because of the Depression.
I think the Depression had a greater impact on how the world was shaped than much anything else.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:33 am to Bison
This is where we have been for many years, Eisenhower warned us.
We make our own disasters for monetary gain for the few.
quote:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."
We make our own disasters for monetary gain for the few.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:44 am to Bison
Exactly where we are right now, divided government, just like the founders intended.
Democrats spending all the , Republicans pretending they don't want to.
Democrats spending all the , Republicans pretending they don't want to.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:49 am to skrayper
quote:
WW1? I'm not sure by how much. The actual war, America didn't do a whole lot. It was already starting to wind down. Certainly not like WWII.
When the US entered WW1 it represented a very sharp paradigm shift in US foreign policy. A paradigm that we are still living under today.
Had America not entered the war, and the new Russian government is unable to hold the Eastern front, how does that war end? Does it affect the timing/motives that created WW2?
How much of the Global Depression born out of nations that indebted themselves during the war effort of WW1?
Dan Carlin has this great line when talking about this:
"When you owe the bank money, they have power over you. When you owe the bank all of the money, you have power over them."
How many nations fell into economic depressions because (a) they could not keep up with the cost of their debt or (b) the debt that they held was uncollected?
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:49 am to Lsuchs
quote:So in the grand scale of things, you're saying 9/11 was irrelevant because there will always be excuses to murder millions of innocent men, women and children.
Where would we be as a country if 9/11 didn’t happen and we didnt go to war?
I’m not giving you my opinion on right or wrong, just my opinion on how things work.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:50 am to 225bred
Why do you think "the government" would have enriched themselves.
If anything I think the Capitalist Class would have.
If anything I think the Capitalist Class would have.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:51 am to VirgilCaine
quote:
How much of WW2's existence should be attributed to WW1? Without WW1, does WW2 happen?
All of it; and absolutely not. I’m not distinguishing from your point on WW1 generally. My point is that American involvement in WW1 had very little to do with either a)the outcome of WW1 or b) the fact that WW1 directly led to WW2
The damn French being spiteful and then ignoring a resurgent Germany until it was too late was far more of a cause.
As another poster mentioned, the Depression also must be factored in. Although a lot of Europe’s issues financially derive directly from the Great War. Either way, WW1 is absolutely a, if not the, turning point of our modern world. American involvement just wasn’t a very big part of it
This post was edited on 12/19/17 at 10:54 am
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:51 am to hawkeye007
quote:It's neither one's "fault." Both were/are establishment puppets just following orders.
Nice Clinton Blame game. Bush and his cronies lied but hey it's Clinton's fault.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:55 am to ILeaveAtHalftime
quote:
The damn French being spiteful and then ignoring a resurgent Germany until it was too late was far more of a cause.
This cannot be overstated in my opinion. I think there was a major malaise in European affairs after WW1 (and you really can't blame them). When your historic enemy is ramping up and banging the drums of war (again), you gotta prepare and have a plan.
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:56 am to VirgilCaine
quote:
Crazy to think about how things would look different if they didn't pre-empt the Western Front by invading Belgium.
Cannot be overstated enough. The British wanted every excuse to stay out. Blind adherence to the war machine/Plan doomed Germany.
This post was edited on 12/19/17 at 10:57 am
Posted on 12/19/17 at 10:59 am to TX Tiger
quote:
So in the grand scale of things, you're saying 9/11 was irrelevant because there will always be excuses to murder millions of innocent men, women and children.
I originally said the US has the been in a conflict every decade since WWII, and I’m not sure there would not have been something somewhere regardless of 9/11.
I’m not stating I’m for or against, why are you turning this into an emotional appeal? Because I am recognizing a pattern (global not just US btw) I’m fine with millions of innocents murdered?
But no it wasn’t irrelevant, it was a major event and was a catalyst for the recent wars. I just honestly believe conflict (maybe not as widespread and prolonged as this case) would still have occurred, and unfortunately will always be occurring.
I don’t think we are necessarily that much different without 9/11.
This post was edited on 12/19/17 at 11:06 am
Posted on 12/19/17 at 11:07 am to Lsuchs
quote:I'm not implying that you are for or against it. I understand what you are saying, and you are probably right; had there not been 9/11, the establishment would have found a different way to get into the Middle East, slaughter millions of innocent people, and conduct regime change. It's what they do. And as you pointed out, it's what they always do.
So in the grand scale of things, you're saying 9/11 was irrelevant because there will always be excuses to murder millions of innocent men, women and children.
I originally said the US has the been in a conflict every decade since WWII, and I’m not sure there would not have been something somewhere regardless of 9/11.
I’m not stating I’m for or against, why are you turning this into an emotional appeal? Because I am recognizing a pattern (global not just US btw) I’m fine with millions of innocents murdered?
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