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re: When did our culture quit producing men that would “do what’s right”?
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:22 pm to Flats
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:22 pm to Flats
quote:
The only thing you can say is that in your opinion inconsistency is bad, but that's just like, your opinion, man.
No, I'm making the claim that an objectively moral system cannot be inconsistent. If it can be shown that the Christian moral system is inconsistent then it cannot be objective.
There are more ways to critique objectively moral systems than appealing to the subjective.
quote:
It's quite rational to believe that if this is all God's creation, that God has the authority to do what he wants with it. I don't, because it's not my creation, but God does.
Why is that "quite rational"? Also I noticed your example included a truck, why didn't you include your child? I wasn't talking about inanimate objects...
This post was edited on 9/21/19 at 1:24 pm
1
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:27 pm to mahdragonz
quote:
There might be clear lines an individual believes in but it is specific only to them.
There are no universal values that are absolutely correct.
Murder is probably the most grievous example but there are a bunch of soldiers walking around right now who put a bullet in another human.
What is an absolute value?
How about having sex with children being abhorrent? I understand the age of consent has varied from culture to culture and time period, so let’s classify “children” as under 10 years old. Or pre-pubescent. Or let’s even make it simpler and say infants and toddlers. Can we say that any kind of sex with infants or toddlers is wrong is a universal value?
Universal value doesn’t mean unanimous decision. There is always going to be some sick f- who thinks anything he/she feels like doing is just dandy. That doesn’t make the value wrong, it makes the person wrong.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:37 pm to Azkiger
quote:
No, I'm making the claim that an objectively moral system cannot be inconsistent.
You're confusing objective with absolute. If there's a moral authority, then that moral authority can dictate that A is moral in this situation, but not in this other situation. Or that same authority could say that A is moral today and immoral tomorrow.
quote:
Why is that "quite rational"?
You don't think a creator has authority over what he creates? Who does, then?
I didn't use a child as an example because I don't own the child's life the same way I own the truck. If there's a creator of the universe then everything in that universe is a truck.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:40 pm to Flats
quote:
I didn't use a child as an example because I don't own the child's life the same way I own the truck. If there's a creator of the universe then everything in that universe is a truck.
Explain why humanity is the truck in this situation and not the child.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:43 pm to Flats
quote:
You're confusing objective with absolute. If there's a moral authority, then that moral authority can dictate that A is moral in this situation, but not in this other situation. Or that same authority could say that A is moral today and immoral tomorrow.
You're confusing objective with subjective. If this authority can shift what is moral, it isn't an objectively moral system. It's simply shifting subjectivity to a different authority.
Objective morality does not exist.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:45 pm to Lightning
quote:
so let’s classify “children” as under 10 years old
Why not 14? Or 55?
You're describing a subjective morality because that's the only option we have.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:47 pm to SquatchDawg
I blame it on the Lawsuits and man buns.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:49 pm to SquatchDawg
Kids these days are soft. And they need to get off my lawn too.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:52 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Why not 14? Or 55?
You're describing a subjective morality because that's the only option we have.
Knew someone would try this, that’s why I specified infants and toddlers in the question.
So again, DisplacedBuckeye, would you agree that having sex with infants and toddlers is universally wrong?
Zero expectation that you will answer this question because DB avoiding direct questions is a universal truth.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:54 pm to Flats
quote:
You're confusing objective with absolute. If there's a moral authority, then that moral authority can dictate that A is moral in this situation, but not in this other situation. Or that same authority could say that A is moral today and immoral tomorrow.
What you've just described is absolute (and subjective), I'm critiquing objective morality as that's what virtually every Christian has claimed forms their worldview with respect to morality.
quote:
You don't think a creator has authority over what he creates? Who does, then?
Not necessarily, and there's a lot of variables to account for in determining who would.
Moreover, even if that question couldn't be answered you don't get to just plug God in there automatically.
quote:
I didn't use a child as an example because I don't own the child's life the same way I own the truck. If there's a creator of the universe then everything in that universe is a truck.
Yea, you don't own a child's life in the same way you own a truck, because one is an animate object and the other isn't (see my last post).
This post was edited on 9/21/19 at 1:56 pm
Posted on 9/21/19 at 1:56 pm to Lightning
quote:
Knew someone would try this, that’s why I specified infants and toddlers in the question.
Cool.
If you think real hard, I'm sure you can figure out why I went the opposite way.
quote:
So again, DisplacedBuckeye, would you agree that having sex with infants and toddlers is universally wrong?
Yes. That doesn't give any objectivity to it.
quote:
Zero expectation that you will answer this question because DB avoiding direct questions is a universal truth.
So much for you being right about anything.
fricking alters.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 2:01 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Not necessarily, and there's a lot of variables to account for in determining who would.
What variables? In the Christian worldview God created the universe; that's everything. What other entity would have authority?
quote:
Yea, you don't own a child's life in the same way you own a truck, because one is an animate object and the other isn't
Correct. I don't own the child's life, but a creator would. What difference does it make that one's animated? Created is created.
This post was edited on 9/21/19 at 2:03 pm
Posted on 9/21/19 at 2:05 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Nope, not an alter. Just a lurker since 2010 who very rarely posts. Your shtick is obvious and tired, though I am impressed you answered a direct question. Miracles never cease!
Posted on 9/21/19 at 2:08 pm to Lightning
quote:
Nope, not an alter.
bullshite.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 2:17 pm to Flats
Anyone else think it funny that an atheist and a Christian are having a discussion about morality, and the Christian is the one arguing for the senseless slaughter of innocent children and the atheist is arguing against it?
Define "creation".
What's being created, a stick or a person? They're different and should be treated differently.
How is the created being used or treated? You don't get to use a firearm however you want just because you created it, nor do you get to create a life and torture it for no reason.
Yep and in that worldview you have to accept the senseless murder of children as perfectly moral.
GASP The exact same thing you fear from subjectively moral standards.
Your question could be phrased "What difference does it make that they're different?" and it wouldn't gain anymore irony.
quote:
What variables?
Define "creation".
What's being created, a stick or a person? They're different and should be treated differently.
How is the created being used or treated? You don't get to use a firearm however you want just because you created it, nor do you get to create a life and torture it for no reason.
quote:
In the Christian worldview God created the universe; that's everything. What other entity would have authority?
Yep and in that worldview you have to accept the senseless murder of children as perfectly moral.
GASP The exact same thing you fear from subjectively moral standards.
quote:
Correct. I don't own the child's life, but a creator would. What difference does it make that one's animated? Created is created.
Your question could be phrased "What difference does it make that they're different?" and it wouldn't gain anymore irony.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 2:29 pm to Flats
quote:
I don't own the child's life, but a creator would.
You are the child's creator.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 2:31 pm to LSUconvert
quote:
You are the child's creator.
I should probably stop talking to him, I'd hate to convince him that God doesn't exist only to have him think that he now has complete authority over his children
This post was edited on 9/21/19 at 2:31 pm
Posted on 9/21/19 at 5:14 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Define "creation".
I already did; I'm talking about the universe. I think I used the word everything, as in every thing. If you don't understand the concept of "creation" or "universe" then you can't have an intelligent discussion about creation and the universe.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 5:18 pm to LSUconvert
Uh, no. "Create" in the context of a discussion about the creator of the universe means ex nihilo.
Posted on 9/21/19 at 5:45 pm to Flats
quote:
I already did; I'm talking about the universe. I think I used the word everything, as in every thing.
Yes, but is creation limited to creatio ex nihilo or does it also include creatio ex materia?
quote:
If you don't understand the concept of "creation" or "universe" then you can't have an intelligent discussion about creation and the universe.
The fact that I'm having to explain the trail we're going down tells me we aren't going to be able to have an intelligent discussion about this without a *LOT* of hand holding. And that's just not something I'm willing to do.
Do some more homework. Also, nice job ignoring everything else I've said. I'll take that as a win.
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