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re: Was the Civil War Fought Because of Slavery? It Depends on Which Side You View
Posted on 5/7/26 at 2:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 5/7/26 at 2:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Always trying to whatabout to blame the North
Nah, but you are falling back once again on misplaced tu quoque
I'm simply familiar with the history.
It is what it is.
Regarding strategy, the South was turned into Lincoln's patsy when it fell into a war trap in 1861. The CSA was never going to win a Civil War, in part, due to the same reason they were losing political influence. The Northern population was simply too large, too industrial, too wealthy in totality, and their resultant ability to fund/supply/wage war too great.
Strategically, the South should have pursued secession through SCOTUS, while strengthening overseas alliances, and organizing its army (including awaiting VA secession and the assigning the commanders it afforded). If legal avenues failed, they should have left the North take first military action. If Lee was in command at that point (as likely would have been the case), there might possibly have been a chance to rout Union forces into panicked retreat, allowing Lee to overrun and capture DC. Perhaps Congress would have forced Lincoln to cut bait and call it a day underthose circumstances.
In that instance, frankly the only possibility for a CSA win, we'd have saved 600,000 lives. The obscenity of slavery would have continued decades, and the subsequent American century would very much have been in doubt. The butterfly effect could presumably be quite ugly. As I've said, IMO the actual outcome is preferable to that.
My reads on history, though, are based more on contemporary sources and less on hindsight. In that regard, an examination of reconstruction reveals an unrestrained radical Congress far more intent on crushing residual southern aristocracy and asserting Northern superiority, than it was in any constructive postwar purpose. Unionists took pleasure in elevating illiterate ex-slaves into positions of power over their ex-masters (further "moral" satisfaction emanated from the fact that those ex-masters imposed the illiteracy in the first place).
The problem being most southerners were not ex-masters. They were desperately impoverished. Where ex-slaves were put "in charge," in those daunting circumstances, at best they simply were not capable of doing much of anything. That incompetency given their lack of anything foundational is understandable. After years of misery, southern whites considered it unforgivable though. They organized against it and attempted to terrorize participants and enforcement alike.
Northerners had zero compassion for Southern Blacks left to fend for themselves in 1877 later. Reading some of the contemporary newspaper accounts from that period is literally nauseating. The whole situation was a festering chamberpot created out of disconnected Northern vindictiveness
You bizarrely label that "whataboutism." I call it a matter of facts.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:01 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
Can you not see how this doesn't work?
If the South would have seceded over the price of tea, would the war be about tea? No.
The war was fought over the North wanting the tariffs from the South.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:03 pm to Narax
quote:
He fired on a target (next to the fort) that was full of rebel soldiers, you are trying to use his words, then respect all of them.
The historically records show it was used by military command.
This is bullshite
Abner hadnt been to the hotel in months. He had no idea what its purpose was. He did admit to seeing beach goers in his sights. And fired anyway. The hotel had lowered the state flag. Its proven that after Doubledays bombardment it was in fact being used as a hospital
quote:
Charleston newspapers “discoursed upon the barbarity of firing on a hospital.”
quote:
So what happened to the Moultrie House? Sullivan’s Island soon became an island fortress as more and more fortifications were erected. The Moultrie House was left standing and continued to be used as a barracks and a hospital.
Even at the surrender they questioned why he fired at the hotel and not the garrisons
quote:
Captain Abner Doubleday, upon boarding the Isabel, was stopped by a South Carolina officer who asked him why he had shot a hole in the Moultrie House, a grand hotel built in 1850 on Sullivan's Island. Captain Doubleday replied, “The landlord had given me a wretched room there one night, and this being the only opportunity that had occurred to get even with him, I was unable to resist it.”
You dont know what you are talking about, and your use of biased AI searches is quite revealing to that fact
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:04 pm to Cuz413
quote:
If the South would have seceded over the price of tea, would the war be about tea? No.
Exactly.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Are you talking about secession or slavery?
Well, since you keep saying they are the same, I am talking about slavery, and the fact that the North no longer recognized that constitutional right
You cant change the terms of the constitution and then not allow those deceived to exit the union
Youre an attorney. If someone agrees to a contract then blatantly refuses to honor the agreement to the tune of billions of dollars, then the contract is voided
Habeas corpus, actions without Congressional authorization, calling up the militia, deploying the military, imposing a blockade, civil liberties, suppress free speech etc. All unconstitutional under Lincolns usage
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:13 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
Well, since you keep saying they are the same
Update: I never did this
quote:
I am talking about slavery, and the fact that the North no longer recognized that constitutional right
The North acted to prevent secession, an illegal behavior by the Southern coalition.
quote:
You cant change the terms of the constitution and then not allow those deceived to exit the union
Update: this did not happen.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Because the country was literally divided into "slave states" and "free states".
Then why was slavery so heavily referenced by the leaders, new instittuions, and secession documents?
It was the identity of seceding states.
It was their core economy.
The difference entailed far more than legalities of slavery though. By nature it separated agrarian from industrial, urban vs rural, dense vs sparse population, raw goods vs manufactured ones, etc.
In addition to Lincoln, the election of 1860 gave radical Republicans their first outright majority in the House. Additionally, of 239 HoR seats, slave states only had 88 of them. The Senate was closer 30 vs 38 of 68 total, the equivalent of a 56-44 split in today's Senate. That is why states seceded.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:21 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Because the country was literally divided into "slave states" and "free states".
Oh so slavery was a driver of major conflict prior to the Civil War, to the point of having states grouped along the lines of their support/rejection of it? Got it.
quote:
It was the identity of seceding states.
Again, and this had no primary impact on their reasons for seceding? It was their entire political in-group identification, but that's a light association at best to the secession? Pure coincidence, same as why only the slave states joined the Confederacy.
quote:
In addition to Lincoln, the election of 1860 gave radical Republicans their first outright majority in the House. Additionally, of 239 HoR seats, slave states only had 88 of them. The Senate was closer 30 vs 38 of 68 total, the equivalent of a 56-44 split in today's Senate. That is why states seceded.
You're arguing the states whose full identity was wrapped in slavery seceded because they would face the consequences of the democratic institutions of their national government? And are we to believe that slavery wasn't the primary political issue they feared federal interaction over? Or is that also just a coincidence?
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Proof counsellor? Case law? 10th Amendment be damed?
The North acted to prevent secession, an illegal behavior by the Southern coalition.
The illegality was an attack on a Federal facility
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:25 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
10th Amendment be damed?
The 10th Amendment doesn't authorize secession
quote:
Proof counsellor?
The Constitution contains no exist clause.
quote:
Case law?
Texas v. White
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:30 pm to NC_Tigah
Succession at that time was not legal or illegal Slo cmon man.
As said above firing on a US federal fort was illegal and a huge mistake by my home State the hot heads of the cause. Many of my southern kin avoid discussing those of the South who were against Succession. Pres. Davis was one of many.
As said above firing on a US federal fort was illegal and a huge mistake by my home State the hot heads of the cause. Many of my southern kin avoid discussing those of the South who were against Succession. Pres. Davis was one of many.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Oh so slavery was a driver of major conflict prior to the Civil War, to the point of having states grouped along the lines of their support/rejection of it? Got it.
WTF are you arguing, a "slavery was unimportant" strawman?
Of course states were grouped along those lines.
quote:You'd have to ask Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, and DC.
Again, and this had no primary impact on their reasons for seceding?
quote:NO!
And are we to believe that slavery wasn't the primary political issue they feared federal interaction over?
You are to believe one factor and one factor only led to secession. That was the election of 1860. It was not slavery. It was not tariffs. It was unfavorable representation.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:What does the 10th Amendment say again? I may have forgotten.
The Constitution contains no exist clause.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 3:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Interesting theory.
The 10th Amendment doesn't authorize secession
So then you can point to the power delegated to the United States by the Constitution prohibiting State secession. Where exactly is that?
Posted on 5/7/26 at 4:13 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
So then you can point to the power delegated to the United States by the Constitution prohibiting State secession.
That's terrible framing, especially for how the BOR was itself framed (individual rights).
You would need a positive authorization of power for states, ie, a clause designating how to exist the union, similar to Article 50 of the EU.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 5:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
SlowFlowPro
I for one am shocked, just shocked you didn’t insert “straw man!! Straw man!!” 20 more times in this post.
Posted on 5/7/26 at 5:40 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
If the South would have seceded over the price of tea, would the war be about tea? No.
Exactly.
According to the astute historians here tea was the reason why Washington et al fought the British in their secession war.
ETA: But we all know it was more than just Tea
This post was edited on 5/7/26 at 5:42 pm
Posted on 5/7/26 at 5:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Could you quote the 10th Amendment clause supporting such a contention?
You would need a positive authorization of power for states,
Posted on 5/7/26 at 8:32 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
This is bullshite
So you continue to say till I explain it to you.
quote:
Abner hadnt been to the hotel in months. He had no idea what its purpose was. He did admit to seeing beach goers in his sights. And fired anyway.
Do you know what a spyglass is?
The hotel is like 5,000 feet away, it's pretty standard for an officer of artillery, and yes, he would have no problem knowing it was full of rebels.
quote:
The hotel had lowered the state flag. Its proven that after Doubledays bombardment it was in fact being used as a hospital
... It was full of soldiers... duh lowering the flag means nothing, I showed you how even confederate records show that their soldiers were using it.
How is it a hospital before the shooting starts?
Remember that was the first shot by the federal government after hours of being shot at.
Factually it could not have been a hospital at the time.
quote:
Charleston newspapers “discoursed upon the barbarity of firing on a hospital.”
Let's face it, your ancestors (That "newspaper" "reporter") were liars without honor like you. Why did the south go to war? Liars and con artists in South Carolina who wanted to keep their slaves and lie to the average Joe who went to war and got shot.
quote:
You dont know what you are talking about, and your use of biased AI searches is quite revealing to that fact
I've repeatedly proven you to be a liar who couldn't come close of 3 Digits on an IQ test.
Everything I've mentioned is verifiable while yours is complete lies.
This post was edited on 5/7/26 at 9:14 pm
Posted on 5/8/26 at 7:19 am to scrooster
quote:the general populace don't decide who a nation goes to war with.
99% of "Northerners" could have given a fat baby's arse about preserving the Union.
This would be fricking retarderd, if it weren't so laughably silly
This post was edited on 5/8/26 at 7:36 am
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