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re: Was slavery an important factor in the Civil War?
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:45 pm to sabes que
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:45 pm to sabes que
quote:
Does that make it right or something to celebrate or honor?
Of course not. But it points out that your willing to oppose slavery from the past, willing to even fight against whatever monuments to it still exist, but like everyone else living in our materialist society you aren’t willing to do what it takes to eliminate it as it exists today because that would involve actual sacrifice. In short, you are virtue signaling.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:48 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:So because someone sees confederate statues as problematic you call them a Marxist? You do realize this is the same type of thing as when liberals call everyone who supports Trump a racist right? If you call everyone a “Marxist” it losing it’s meaning.
However no complaint, concern or even remotely expressed interest from you and your Marxist ilk
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:48 pm to sabes que
I read many, many civil war letters from both union and confederate soldiers alike, writing to their loved ones and I never once saw the word slavery mentioned, by either side.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:48 pm to sabes que
Absolutely. It’s in writing that that was part of the reason they wanted to secede from the union
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:51 pm to sabes que
Good grief, man. Have you never read history books, researched papers and speeches from before and during that era???
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:51 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
HOWEVER, people get wya to altruistic about why the North decided they needed to go to war to keep the South From seceding. It was to preserve the Union.
Given the North's lust for tariffs the South was paying and the South as a captive market, that Union was more than some noble idea.
The tariffs resulted in a northern economic boom and a southern decade long depression. Can't imagine why anyone would want to leave that kind of relationship.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 7:55 pm to Dawgfanman
I kind of understand what you are saying. But, begrudgingly buying an I phone that is made in China, is very different from celebrating or building a statue to a figure that fought to keep slavery in this country.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:00 pm to Dawgfanman
You act as it because it is easy to be against confederate monuments, and hard to stop modern day slavery, that we shouldn’t do the former. It would be like donating to a charity to end hunger in your community and someone else saying “yea but you haven’t done one single thing to help cure child leukemia!”
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:01 pm to sabes que
quote:
I kind of understand what you are saying. But, begrudgingly buying an I phone that is made in China, is very different from celebrating or building a statue to a figure that fought to keep slavery in this country.
Lol, you don’t have to have a smart phone. You meant willingly/gleefully I’m sure.
And you are right it is different. Building a statue never ensured someone lived as a slave, created a demand for slaves. Purchases we all make create the very market for slavery as it exists today.
The fight against statues is theater, the hiding of socialist policies behind a facade of race. BLM has stated their purpose, to dismantle western civilization starting with the most basic ideal, the traditional family. The rest is just fluff to attract window lickers.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:02 pm to sabes que
quote:
Did the Confederacy want to keep slavery legal?
If you read Bruce Cattons accounts of the civil war (and I highly recommend him), he uses primary source material in the form of interviews, letters, official documents to paint a pretty sold picture of what folks were doing in and before the civil war. And from his accounts neither side cared about slavery at all levels of life. Neither side was willing to send their sons or fathers to fight for slaves on either side. When Lincoln did his emancipation proclamation there were race riots in northern cities were folks blamed blacks for the war. In the south it was almost universally fighting and dying for a state or a fight against factory owners(northern factories were considered prison like, an attitude that lasted through reconstruction in terms like linthead). There were real fears the Army of the Potomac would just go home or vote for McClallen and ending the war. Fortunately McClallen was not as popular as he was thought to be and Lincoln was able to finish the war. Few abolitionist fought directly for the north. Most were pacifist and while content to use others to push a cause, rarely joined the fighting.
quote:
Also most of these statues were not built right after the war, but rather later during the Civil Rights movement and Jim Crowe in order to send a message that their was a status quo that was going to be maintained
I’m sure some were built to thump their nose at the civil rights movement. But most were put up by wives, daughters, family of those that were killed in the war. Many romanticized the idea of the lost cause not because of slavery but because of a strong English tradition of doing so. The cavaliers lost to the roundheads but the mystique of the cavaliers lies on while the roundheads are relegated to history. The Scottish have the Jacobites, the legend of King Arthur and Camelot both lost causes romanticized in popular culture. Southerners saw themselves as the English saw those examples, King Harold fighting the Normans
Slavery is at best in the background of the imagery of the Antebellum south and the civil war. The statues are more a tribute in the English style than a bygone threat.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:04 pm to ItalianIceMaker
quote:
Absolutely. It’s in writing that that was part of the reason they wanted to secede from the union
Abraham Lincoln on Southern slavery:
quote:
Letter to Alexander Stevens:
Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would,directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears.
The South would be in no more danger in this respect, than it was in the days of Washington. I suppose, however, this does not meet the case. You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is?wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us.
1860 Inaugural Address:
I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this, and many similar declarations, and had never recanted them.
Letter to Horace Greeley:
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.
This post was edited on 7/9/20 at 8:06 pm
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:06 pm to sabes que
quote:
You act as it because it is easy to be against confederate monuments, and hard to stop modern day slavery, that we shouldn’t do the former. It would be like donating to a charity to end hunger in your community and someone else saying “yea but you haven’t done one single thing to help cure child leukemia!”
No it would be like saying you want to end hunger, donating to have a mural built to end hunger, but refusing to give food to the hungry.
No one supports slavery. Some don’t want to see the Washington monument taken down, the Jefferson memorial torn asunder, etc. that is afterall the end of the purging our society of monuments to slave owners.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:10 pm to sabes que
quote:
In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.”
LINK- Constitution of the confederate statesConstitution of the confederate states.
So yes
This post was edited on 7/9/20 at 8:11 pm
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:14 pm to ItalianIceMaker
quote:
LINK- Constitution of the confederate statesConstitution of the confederate states.
Yet the secessionist movement started over the devastating effects of tariffs on the South a full generation before the abolitionist movement took root.
When one side gets fat and rich due to tariffs and the other has a decade long depression, a lot of love is lost.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:15 pm to ItalianIceMaker
CSA wanted future states/territories to be able to choose if they wanted slavery among other things
USA wanted to keep slavery contained to the South.
The short answer is the war was about both states' rights and slavery but the CSA didn't go to war to keep their slaves.
USA wanted to keep slavery contained to the South.
The short answer is the war was about both states' rights and slavery but the CSA didn't go to war to keep their slaves.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:28 pm to Dawgfanman
Do you think the US having monuments celebrating people who fought a war to keep slavery could lead to the US being called hypocritical if they were to try to do more to end “modern day slavery?” Also do you realize things that facilitate this “modern day slavery” are the result of people claiming “the free market” or capitalism when promoting free trade between counties is something that has largely been promoted by the right? It is definitely one of the things I like about Trump, the fact he opposed TPP and supports keeping jobs in the US. Also there are and have been proponents of these “free trade” deals on the Democratic side as well. But things like “banana republics” and outsourcing to China is something that has been/was largely promoted by the right in the 1980s and seen as business friendly.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:54 pm to Madking
More Republicans voted for NAFTA than Democrats.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 9:25 pm to sabes que
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