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Message
re: Turkey clears way for Finland, Sweden to join NATO
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:18 pm to Bearcat90
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:18 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
I'd say yes since Putin warned he would possibly use nuclear weapons if this happens.
You would be wrong to do so.
The moment one country lets another country dictate to them via direct threat of violence is the moment they've given up their sovereignty.
Russia wouldn't be feel threatened if they didn't consider attacking that country an option at some point.
That Russia feels so threatened by a country wanting to join a group created and maintained to defend against possible Russian attacks only underscores the need for such a group.
quote:
Might make sense to try and have peace talks with Russia instead of the tactics the west has been using.
That's been tried. How did that work out for Ukraine? (not just now but when Russia took Crimea from Ukraine almost a decade ago) Russia's primary stance is to leave them be to intimidate other countries into being their lackies. That's untenable and it's ridiculous to even contemplate that as a reasonable rationale for negotiation.
quote:
Only bad shite can happen if we keep "poking the bear" that has more nuclear weapons than anyone else on earth.
M.A.D. When they launch nukes, they become targets of nukes. Considering the state of their military (as witnessed in their war on Ukraine), it's legitimately questionable as to how much of their nuclear arsenal would actually work or not.
1
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:18 pm to Bearcat90
Meh.
If Russia didn’t feel the need to show aggression then maybe they would have stayed neutral.
They are joining for their own defense so they don’t become the next Ukraine.
Do you blame them?
If Russia didn’t feel the need to show aggression then maybe they would have stayed neutral.
They are joining for their own defense so they don’t become the next Ukraine.
Do you blame them?
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:18 pm to Realityintheface
Finland and Sweden joining NATO is likely as big a redline as The Ukraine joining. Finland's location gives NATO the ability to stage troops for assaults that can sever communications between Moscow and Russia's nuclear arsenal on the Cola Peninsula. Sweden joining allows NATO the ability to blockade the Baltic Sea and to monitor all Russian naval activity going in and out.
That is huge. I expect that between this and Lithuania "blockading" Kaliningrad, that Russia will react the only way it can to this news, with further escalation and brinksmanship.
That is huge. I expect that between this and Lithuania "blockading" Kaliningrad, that Russia will react the only way it can to this news, with further escalation and brinksmanship.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:19 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
But if they do, it'll be "our fault" for allowing sovereign nations to make their own foreign policy decisions, right? Because Russia should get veto power over everything that happens, since they'll get really really mad if we don't let them have their way.
I never said that. Not sure why you're trying to start an argument with me, all I keep asking is why there have been no peace talks. Never said anything about Ukraine giving up land either, that was you.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:19 pm to Realityintheface
A Russian spokes person said it was no big deal because they were defacto in NATO anyway.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:20 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
How do you think the USA would react if Mexico signed a Treaty with Russia or China? Or Canada did this?
China's already balls deep in MX et.al. and we're not doing shite about it. Not sure how that plays into your discussion, but whatevs.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:21 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
I was referring to Turkey bending the knee and allowing it as a voting member.
Did you actually think the Turks were going to do any different? They've already made their choice by being a NATO member and everyone knew that the Turks, especially the Turks, would get something if they held out. And they did.
quote:
How do you think the USA would react if Mexico signed a Treaty with Russia or China? Or Canada did this?
It would mean the US security umbrella deteriorated to the degree that near-neighbors needed help.
quote:
FYI Russia just flew fighter jets into Swedish airspace as recently as June 9th.
They've been doing that to Baltic States for a while now. For example: LINK
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:21 pm to kingbob
quote:
That is huge. I expect that between this and Lithuania "blockading" Kaliningrad, that Russia will react the only way it can to this news, with further escalation and brinksmanship.
Agree totally. And with a cancer stricken Putin, who knows what he may do.
I'm sure there will be people bashing your opinion soon, but you're spot on.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:23 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Not sure why you're trying to start an argument with me, all I keep asking is why there have been no peace talks. Never said anything about Ukraine giving up land either, that was you.
That’s the blatant and over the top obvious answer to your question.
Russia wants the land. Ukraine doesn’t want to give it up.
What do you mean “why aren’t there more peace talks”?
There’s nothing to talk about yet, until one side has enough and is willing to concede territorial claims. 
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:23 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:well, duh.
Bearkat … (not) thinking this through clearly.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:23 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
It would mean the US security umbrella deteriorated to the degree that near-neighbors needed help.
Hasn't Biden already done this to all of our allies?
The only country he seems to help is China getting wealthier. And we all know why he does that.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:24 pm to Bearcat90
quote:your a retard if you think Russia is going to do anything at all militarily, let alone nukes, over Finland and Sweden joining NATO. Nuking anyone else 100% assures that all the government high ups, elites in society are going to instantly die in a nuclear response. As for conventional retaliation, they can barely handle Ukraine at the moment and have lost upwards of 30% of their total fighting strength
Just keep poking the Bear.
Insanity.
Vladimir Putin issues three warning shots to Sweden - one of them is nuclear war
shite just got a lot more serious.
This post was edited on 6/28/22 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:24 pm to BamaGradinTn
quote:
Do you think it's worth getting into a full scale war with Russia just to protect Lithuania?
It’s not about protecting Lithuanian. It’s about Article 5 and you have to support it regardless of who is attacked and by whom. You don’t say it’s not worth it because then the entire alliance collapses and worse shite will happen.
Putin is no different than a school yard bully. Only picks on the small and weak kids. He counts on the stronger kids saying it’s not worth getting into a fight to protect a nerd. He gets mad, struts around, and tries to intimidate everyone from helping the nerd. But he doesn’t strike the stronger kids does he? No. Intimidation is his strongest weapon. We made a promise to help the nerd. If we don’t, the world is gonna be different and much more dangerous place.
Yes he has nukes, but Putin will not suicide Russia by throwing a nuke on a NATO country. He’s not crazy like Hitler that said his people didn’t deserve to live after the war was lost. Putin loves Russia and wants it’s former glory back. (I hesitate to even say Russia has a former glory but that’s what Putin thinks).
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:25 pm to kingbob
quote:
Finland's location gives NATO the ability to stage troops for assaults that can sever communications between Moscow and Russia's nuclear arsenal on the Cola Peninsula.
Makes it easier, but NATO is already a only few hundred kilometers from this same area via the Baltic States.
quote:
Sweden joining allows NATO the ability to blockade the Baltic Sea and to monitor all Russian naval activity going in and out.
NATO had this ability from day one, because Denmark and Norway are members.
This addition is far more substantial on paper and in color shaded maps of Europe than it is in reality. The situation on the ground will not change. Sweden and Finland have been acting as NATO members for decades already.
This post was edited on 6/28/22 at 4:26 pm
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:26 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
I'd actually love it if Europe started protecting itself and we could pull out.
We are never going to pull out of NATO. Why would we pull out of an organization that we created and serves American interests?
quote:
Just don't understand why there have been zero serious talks to try and find a peaceful way for the current war to end.
Well, first an invasion occurred, which sidelined the people who no longer felt that Russia was a threat. That was a large hurdle in many Western countries. There was no need for talks when lots of people in many Western governments didn't take the Russians seriously. Secondly, Russia will likely not respect any agreement, because they haven't reached any of their war aims. Thirdly, Russian insecurity is never going to be satisfied. Why give them anything at all? Just because they have nuclear weapons?
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:26 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Russia wants the land. Ukraine doesn’t want to give it up.
Again, never stated this. You did, repeatedly now.
Can you answer why you would be against peace talks?
The optimal word being talks.
All there seems to be is more and more cash flowing into Ukraine in a no-win situation for them.
I seriously doubt you'll answer me with anything more than some more bullshite I haven't said.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:27 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Did you actually think the Turks were going to do any different? They've already made their choice by being a NATO member and everyone knew that the Turks, especially the Turks, would get something if they held out. And they did.
The Turks have been playing both sides of a lot of conflicts over the last 15 years or so. It was not unthinkable that they would act in ways that were, at least not openly hostile to Russia. Remember, that Turkey joining NATO happened a VERY long time ago politically in Turkey. Erdogan's regime is very different from the government that was in charge back when that decision was made. Twenty years ago, Turkey was a serious candidate for being added to the European Union, Schengen Area, and adopting the Euro as its currency. Today, it is saber-rattling with Greece over claims to Cypress and maritime borders.
I am not surprised that Turkey was merely leveraging its vote for concessions (I predicted on this board that this was likely the case), but I also would not have been especially surprised if that was not what they were doing.
This post was edited on 6/28/22 at 4:28 pm
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:27 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Only bad shite can happen if we keep "poking the bear" that has more nuclear weapons than anyone else on earth.
If their ICBM's maintenance is similar to their stuff in the Ukraine much of their missiles would never leave the silo.
There were reports that at the end of the cold war many of their missiles had no fuel in them. The soldiers had taken it our and make liquor out of it.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:28 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Can you answer why you would be against peace talks?
I’m not. I’m telling you why those talks haven’t gone anywhere.
You keep asking why talks aren’t happening, and I keep telling you the very obvious answer. You don’t seem willing to accept it.
This post was edited on 6/28/22 at 4:29 pm
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:28 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Hasn't Biden already done this to all of our allies?
No. The reality is that the military apparatus of the US operates on a level beyond who the president is, in terms of strategic thinking. There are changes that are made every president, but the broader strategic aims remain the same.
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