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Started By
Message
re: Turkey clears way for Finland, Sweden to join NATO
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:57 pm to Indefatigable
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:57 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
This is about Sweden and Finland joining NATO, which unequivocally does not "escalate" anything merely because Russia said "don't do it."
I wouldn't put Sweden and Finland joining NATO at the same level as Russia installing missile launch sites in Cuba during the Cold War, but it's similar as far as levels of brinksmanship and outrage.
2
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:57 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
I'll accept that you think peace talks haven't happened. Yet. Why?
Russia won't leave Ukraine voluntarily
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:57 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
If Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?
quote:
Yes. That's literally what the defense pact is for.
Oh, really? Is that what NATO did when Turkey invaded Greece???
Greece would cheer loudly and take all of Cyprus back.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:58 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Greece would cheer loudly and take all of Cyprus back.
Not immediately, but as soon as Turkey started pulling forces out of Cyprus, the Greeks would absolutely launch an attack. 100%
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:59 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
I'll accept that you think peace talks haven't happened. Yet. Why?
Why would the Ukrainians accept peace talks right now? You realize that the Ukrainians don't want peace talks either, right?
quote:
But what I find even more unacceptable than not trying to have peace talks is thinking that escalating this conflict at every turn will have an outcome any different than if we just stayed the frick out of it entirely.
Well, thankfully, you don't operate in the arena of geopolitics, because this is utterly naïve.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 4:59 pm to kingbob
quote:
I wouldn't put Sweden and Finland joining NATO at the same level as Russia installing missile launch sites in Cuba during the Cold War
Good, because it isn't. And our position in that situation is as indefensible (note: not illogical, but indefensible) as Russia's is here. We had zero right to dictate the relationship between the USSR and Cuba. Khrushchev simply blinked at our brinksmanship.
quote:
but it's similar as far as levels of brinksmanship and outrage.
Nah. Russia has already taken the side that the EU and NATO are the same entity, and that Sweden/Finland have been NATO members all along.
This post was edited on 6/28/22 at 5:01 pm
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:00 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Russia won't leave Ukraine voluntarily
Can't argue that point.
All I've ever said is:
1) Not our fricking war.
2) Why are we not promoting peace talks.
3) Why are we escalating an unwinnable war.
4) NOT OUR frickING WAR.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:00 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
This is about Sweden and Finland joining NATO, which unequivocally does not "escalate" anything merely because Russia said "don't do it."
This is an unknown.
Time will tell.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:02 pm to Bearcat90
Kharkiv (2nd biggest city), at worst is 30 miles from the Russian border and they couldn’t take it. Just 30 miles when the invasion began. The Ukrainians pushed the Russians back to the border at one point in fact. Putin had to push them back off the border as a PR move.
I think you are overestimating Russia and underestimating Ukraine. That thinking was normal at the beginning of the war. Not now.
I think you are overestimating Russia and underestimating Ukraine. That thinking was normal at the beginning of the war. Not now.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:02 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Oh, really? Is that what NATO did when Turkey invaded Greece???
They weren't involved in that conflict, were they?
quote:
Greece would cheer loudly and take all of Cyprus back.
And then what would happen?
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:03 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
Why are we not promoting peace talks.
Someone else tell him why. He won't listen to me, but I'll try one more time:
Ukraine.
Does.
Not.
Want.
And.
Is.
Not.
Willing.
To.
Consider.
Negotiating.
Any.
Loss.
Of.
Ukrainian.
Territory.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:03 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Russia won't leave Ukraine voluntarily
That depends on the definition of “Ukraine” as a nation state going forward.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:04 pm to kingbob
quote:
Not immediately, but as soon as Turkey started pulling forces out of Cyprus, the Greeks would absolutely launch an attack. 100%
Why would Turkey pull out forces from Cyprus in the event of a Russian invasion? They would likely use the Cyprus base even more as a coordination point.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:05 pm to Bearcat90
NOT OUR frickING WAR.
I’m curious. Is there anything it would take for you to say that it is? Anything?
I’m curious. Is there anything it would take for you to say that it is? Anything?
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:06 pm to Bearcat90
quote:
2) Why are we not promoting peace talks.
Because the Ukrainians don't want to have peace talks, because peace talks now mean giving up territory. Russian insecurity is so great that any concession would embolden them, as they want to get to the Carpathian Mountains, which serves as a natural buffer to the European Plain.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:07 pm to kingbob
quote:
it's similar as far as levels of brinksmanship and outrage.
It genuinely isn't.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:09 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:
That depends on the definition of “Ukraine” as a nation state going forward.
Russia won't leave *the sovereign borders of Ukraine on January 1, 2022.
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:09 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Why would Turkey pull out forces from Cyprus in the event of a Russian invasion?
I don't know, maybe they would have to take some troops from Cyprus to shore up a defense of Anatolia since that's where the Russian army would be fighting?
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:12 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Why would Turkey pull out forces from Cyprus in the event of a Russian invasion? They would likely use the Cyprus base even more as a coordination point.
Better question is what the hell would the 10,000 UK military personnel on Cyprus do in that event
Posted on 6/28/22 at 5:15 pm to Realityintheface
By the way, I am thankful the discussion is more deep then “frick you!” “No, frick you!!” Some very intelligent people come to this board and I want to hear their thoughts and opinions on this rather then the topic that N.O. is a shite hole, which we already know and beat that to death.
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