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re: The Official Thread: Russia invades Ukraine
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:36 pm to JayDeerTay84
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:36 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Russia never controlled Kyiv.
Just the area between Kyiv and Belarus.
Which is no longer under Russian control.
1
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:39 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Just the area between Kyiv and Belarus.
Which is no longer under Russian control.
Do you understand what control means with regards to war? Just because the media paints maps Red doesnt really mean much.
This post was edited on 4/27/22 at 7:40 pm
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:42 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Do you understand what control means with regards to war? Just because the media paints maps Red doesnt really mean much.
Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking it was the Russian army north of Kyiv?
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:46 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking it was the Russian army north of Kyiv?
Existence of Troops doesnt mean control.
Like I feel like I have to read you the definition of Control.
When a front line advances, its contested. Once it is secure , its classified as controlled.
It was a gigantic clusterfrick in the north.
I dunno, maybe you think I am taking up for Russia when I am highlighting their failed incursion.
This post was edited on 4/27/22 at 7:47 pm
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:51 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Like I feel like I have to read you the definition of Control.
When a front line advances, its contested. Once it is secure , its classified as controlled.
What it's classified as is a matter of perspective, or as I said earlier a matter of preference in propaganda as to whether a tactical retreat or counteroffensive occurred.
Posted on 4/27/22 at 7:54 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
What it's classified as is a matter of perspective, or as I said earlier a matter of preference in propaganda as to whether a tactical retreat or counteroffensive occurred.
The conversation was about Ukraine recapturing controlled land. Currently, its only land in the East that is controlled and some cities still contested. You are the one that pointed to Kyiv.
Kyiv was never under Russian control.
This post was edited on 4/27/22 at 7:54 pm
Posted on 4/27/22 at 9:05 pm to TigerAttorney
quote:
Without air superiority your nothing.
That is categorically incorrect. You can be highly effective even without air superiority if the other side lacks control of the skies as well. And yes, I have been shot at on more than one continent.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 12:54 am to TigerAttorney
quote:
quote: As long as Putin is in charge this will not happen. His world view is so warped that he thinks the Russian military is equal to the West, even after they got smashed in northern Ukraine. I fought in Fallujah Iraq and spent two deployments in that crap hole of the world. And I can tell you if the armed militias/terrorists/ republican gaurd was being supplied the weapons and money the west is supplying Ukraine we would have not taken that country in the short time we did. This isn’t an indictment on the US. I love this country and would proudly serve again. But I feel the perception of ineptitude towards Russias military capabilities are dangerous. They are closest to near peer soon to be surpassed by China if not already. Russia is not fully mobilized and I’m not talking about nuclear and chemical weapons. Something is not right about this conflict from the moment it started and that’s what worries me
I fought in Iraq, too, and I think your perception sucks arse of the comparative capabilities of both militaries. I’ve also worked with Russian contractors in the past (who seemed like decent dudes, actually).
No NCO corps, no combined arms maneuver, no legitimate joint cooperation, 19th century logistics capabilities, so on and so on.
I said it in February and will say it again - they are no near peer and haven’t sniffed that since the Wall fell. They have Mexico’s GDP and population. They aren’t much better militarily other than the nuclear weapons they have. This was the biggest strategic mistake of any serious power of the 21st century from the day it started, and it’s why it was so hard to believe they’d actually execute this shite show.
We have an economy fifteen times the size with a population 2.5 times the size of Russia’s. Again, they are not and haven’t been a serious peer for more than thirty years. A truly modern military requires a robust technology sector, a high innovation economy, a large and wealthy middle class, sophisticated procurement processes, rule of law, and responsiveness to public will. Also, Russia barely spends more than either France or Britain - two supposedly receding, junior NATO powers - on an annual basis on their military.
At a bare, bare, bare, absolute minimum, we would’ve ensured air dominance at this stage no questions asked. We would’ve conquered the country in a matter of weeks, even with upgraded equipment.
Russia’s military sucks outside of home turf. They’ve been that way for a thousand years.
This post was edited on 4/28/22 at 12:59 am
Posted on 4/28/22 at 7:07 am to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
I fought in Iraq, too, and I think your perception sucks arse of the comparative capabilities of both militaries. I’ve also worked with Russian contractors in the past (who seemed like decent dudes, actually).
No NCO corps, no combined arms maneuver, no legitimate joint cooperation, 19th century logistics capabilities, so on and so on.
I said it in February and will say it again - they are no near peer and haven’t sniffed that since the Wall fell. They have Mexico’s GDP and population. They aren’t much better militarily other than the nuclear weapons they have. This was the biggest strategic mistake of any serious power of the 21st century from the day it started, and it’s why it was so hard to believe they’d actually execute this shite show.
We have an economy fifteen times the size with a population 2.5 times the size of Russia’s. Again, they are not and haven’t been a serious peer for more than thirty years. A truly modern military requires a robust technology sector, a high innovation economy, a large and wealthy middle class, sophisticated procurement processes, rule of law, and responsiveness to public will. Also, Russia barely spends more than either France or Britain - two supposedly receding, junior NATO powers - on an annual basis on their military.
At a bare, bare, bare, absolute minimum, we would’ve ensured air dominance at this stage no questions asked. We would’ve conquered the country in a matter of weeks, even with upgraded equipment.
Russia’s military sucks outside of home turf. They’ve been that way for a thousand years.
While all of this is accurate, the problem I think everyone is having is comparing the war effort to US.
While yes, Russia is an enemy, we are not fighting Russia. This is what war in Europe would look like without US involvement.
Yes, certain countries have better conventional Tech than Russia, but that is where Russia's tactical nukes come into play.
I think we all get hung up on a ground war when the reality is there would be no ground war in a clash between us.
Take North Korea for example. DO they exist because of a conventional army? No. No they do not....
This post was edited on 4/28/22 at 7:08 am
Posted on 4/28/22 at 7:54 am to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
We have an economy fifteen times the size with a population 2.5 times the size of Russia’s. Again, they are not and haven’t been a serious peer for more than thirty years. A truly modern military requires a robust technology sector, a high innovation economy, a large and wealthy middle class, sophisticated procurement processes, rule of law, and responsiveness to public will. Also, Russia barely spends more than either France or Britain - two supposedly receding, junior NATO powers - on an annual basis on their military.
Sick of this Fox News/CNN Neocon puppet bullshvt being thrown around. Where did this robust economy get us in Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan? A draw against two authoritarian crazy dictators and two Loses against essentially militiamen. Face it, war is tough on any country especially the one on the offensive.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 8:17 am to TigerAttorney
quote:
Russia has air superiority, space superiority, satellite mapping (heightened GPS). The west is sending Ukraine tanks and armored vehicles? It’s political theater.
None of this is true. Russia attempted more air sorties a few days ago and lost two jets and multiple helicopters.
quote:
But do a little research on military capabilities. There’s a reason we didn’t send aircraft.
On paper, the Brooklyn Nets should win the NBA Championship. Same thing with a lot of Les Miles LSU teams. Same thing for the Cowboys.
I know what Russia has 'on paper' but what we've seen on the field is a disaster. NATO weapons are, by far, superior.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 8:29 am to Palmetto98
quote:
Sick of this Fox News/CNN Neocon puppet bullshvt being thrown around. Where did this robust economy get us in Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan?
For the United States, winning a war is easy. Winning the population is hard.
None of the populations you listed were as culturally close as Russia and Ukraine, and Russia has utterly lost Ukraine for at least two decades.
And if the US can't win a war/occupation, how does anyone expect impoverished, cut-off Russia to absorb Ukraine and sustain an occupation?
Posted on 4/28/22 at 8:32 am to RuLSU
Gotta call bs on this. Russia is averaging 200 sorties a day. I'm not in the mood to work for you, but there are plenty of links supporting this. Even western msm. Google Russia sorties per day Ukraine
Posted on 4/28/22 at 8:48 am to RuLSU
quote:
For the United States, winning a war is easy. Winning the population is hard. None of the populations you listed were as culturally close as Russia and Ukraine, and Russia has utterly lost Ukraine for at least two decades. And if the US can't win a war/occupation, how does anyone expect impoverished, cut-off Russia to absorb Ukraine and sustain an occupation?
Russia isn’t going to absorb Ukraine lol. Most likely take the eastern portions and collaborate with the Chinese. Russia fights sloppy at first, but they still manage to win at the end. We are talking about a country that’s took down Napoleon, Hitler, and unfortunately looking like us whom did the whole Russia is weak analysis beforehand.
Our economy is shrinking, our cities our shrinking, crime is on the rise, and we are over here crying over what Russia does in the fvcking Donbas?
This post was edited on 4/28/22 at 8:51 am
Posted on 4/28/22 at 10:57 am to Palmetto98
It's all about strategic ROE.
Russia could completely destroy every single military installation and city in Ukraine in a matter of days/weeks.
We could have done the same in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan. Heck, we overran Iraq in a matter of days and weeks simply because the gloves were off.
If Putin/Russia went whole hog, this interaction would be over in days and weeks ... but that isn't a strategic option for hearts, minds and long term de-escalation/ integration of captured territory.
A lot more to arm chair general-ing than unzipping your pants and putting it all on the table ...
Russia could completely destroy every single military installation and city in Ukraine in a matter of days/weeks.
We could have done the same in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan. Heck, we overran Iraq in a matter of days and weeks simply because the gloves were off.
If Putin/Russia went whole hog, this interaction would be over in days and weeks ... but that isn't a strategic option for hearts, minds and long term de-escalation/ integration of captured territory.
A lot more to arm chair general-ing than unzipping your pants and putting it all on the table ...
Posted on 4/28/22 at 1:47 pm to AmishSamurai
LINK 21 minute interview of scott ritter by judge napolitano on how war is going. 48 hours old.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 6:30 pm to AmishSamurai
quote:
It's all about strategic ROE. Russia could completely destroy every single military installation and city in Ukraine in a matter of days/weeks. We could have done the same in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan. Heck, we overran Iraq in a matter of days and weeks simply because the gloves were off. If Putin/Russia went whole hog, this interaction would be over in days and weeks ... but that isn't a strategic option for hearts, minds and long term de-escalation/ integration of captured territory. A lot more to arm chair general-ing than unzipping your pants and putting it all on the table ...
China is the reason Korea was a draw and China scared us from winning in Vietnam. Putin cannot bomb Ukraine in to oblivion because this would definitely risk war with NATO.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 7:28 pm to AmishSamurai
quote:
If Putin/Russia went whole hog, this interaction would be over in days and weeks ... but that isn't a strategic option for hearts, minds and long term de-escalation/ integration of captured territory.
I have been asking for a while and no one can give me a square answer.
How is any of this worth it? 30% of Russian GDP is oil and gas and they are either about to be embargoed or themselves shut off the valve for the Europeans, driving down the price of their own product to... China?
Then there's the long term sanctions and now pariah status of the Russian govt long term.
Where's the benefit?
Posted on 4/28/22 at 7:39 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
How is any of this worth it? 30% of Russian GDP is oil and gas and they are either about to be embargoed or themselves shut off the valve for the Europeans, driving down the price of their own product to... China?
Then there's the long term sanctions and now pariah status of the Russian govt long term.
Where's the benefit?
Russia is backed and in total agreement with China and India. The worlds 2 largest population centers. Zoom out.
Short term pain, long term goals.
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