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Message
re: The cops are looking worse and worse here
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:31 pm to Powerman
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:31 pm to Powerman
quote:I'm not a Marine. I was a SRT instructor and uniformed patrol officer.
You're trying to apply your training from the Marines to a completely different situation. You've got an 18 year old kid with probably minimal skill with a weapon gunning down elementary school kids that are completely defenselessness. Immediate intervention by people trained to use weapons is most likely what offers the best outcome.
And we agree on the intervention part, but not as a single officer (which was my point).
A 2-man cell is preferable to a single officer, and a 4-man cell is absolutely the best way to go.
I've been critical of their response while admitting that I don't know what resources were available at the time.
You never answered my question though - how were you trained to locate a concealed shooter in an unfamiliar structure? I'm always eager to learn.
3
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:33 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
You never answered my question though - how were you trained to locate a concealed shooter in an unfamiliar structure? I'm always eager to learn.
Not claiming I am. But it's pretty obvious in this situation inaction is not ever going to offer a good outcome
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:41 pm to Powerman
quote:We agree. Inaction bad. Action good.
Not claiming I am. But it's pretty obvious in this situation inaction is not ever going to offer a good outcome
Somewhere along the spectrum, though, is an approach that does offer the best chance of success. One officer charging into an unfamiliar building, not know how many shooters there are or where they are is a bad, bad plan.
That's why SRT/SORT/SWAT teams around the world train and operate in 4-man cells.
I'm sure there's some high speed Mossad or Spetsnaz guy who could have done it all on his own, but I think those guys are unicorns.
We probably agree on 99% of this event, but a single officer making entry is bad. 2, at a minimum.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:49 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
Yeah I agree that 2 minimum would be preferred. But obviously something like this is a very time sensitive situation.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:51 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
You never answered my question though - how were you trained to locate a concealed shooter in an unfamiliar structure? I'm always eager to learn.
This doesn’t seem to be the situation here. The police have stated they had 3 officers inside who knew exactly where the person was in the classroom with kids, they remained there for an hour while the kids were shot and bled out.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:58 pm to Dawgfanman
quote:Based on my lengthy experience, I doubt the accuracy of that statement. Not doubting they said it, but doubting that they knew where the shooter was.
This doesn’t seem to be the situation here. The police have stated they had 3 officers inside who knew exactly where the person was in the classroom with kids, they remained there for an hour while the kids were shot and bled out.
Awful all the way around, but even more so if that info is correct.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:00 pm to Powerman
quote:Yes, which in my experience would be made worse by a lone warrior commando approach.
Yeah I agree that 2 minimum would be preferred. But obviously something like this is a very time sensitive situation.
Sad stuff, regardless.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:01 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
Maybe you missed my question to you in the other thread. Maybe you will see it here.
quote:
Honest question then. Why do all cops, even the “good” and “noble” ones, always circle the wagons and protect the “bad” ones? Even in the obvious, blatantly, shockingly “bad” situations? If it is true that most cops are good, and they are aware that one bad apple can ruin the whole barrel, then why do they all protect and cover for the rotten apples? It seems they would want to boot their asses and make an example of them; saying “this isn’t us; this guy was a jackass and doesn’t represent us”. But they don’t
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:02 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
Based on my lengthy experience, I doubt the accuracy of that statement. Not doubting they said it, but doubting that they knew where the shooter was. Awful all the way around, but even more so if that info is correct.
Why would they say that if it wasn’t true? Sometimes the answer is just the cops fricked up. Be that due to cowardice, incompetence, whatever…that is starting to look like the case here.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:39 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
Still, if the shooter says "I'm in room 2112" I wouldn't fault a team for still following a dynamic method because...you know...people lie. And they move sometimes.
Again, that depends on the objective. If innocent children are being executed my objective would be to interrupt that ASAP. Yes, that would be at an increased risk to me.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:40 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
Yes he might have been out numbered in that scenario BUT he is slowing them down and gaining time for backup
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:43 pm to Dawgfanman
quote:Are you asking why the government would lie to you?
Why would they say that if it wasn’t true? Sometimes the answer is just the cops fricked up. Be that due to cowardice, incompetence, whatever…that is starting to look like the case here.
Is that what you're asking?
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:46 pm to captdalton
quote:I'd have to challenge the "all cops" assertion because it isn't true.
Honest question then. Why do all cops, even the “good” and “noble” ones, always circle the wagons and protect the “bad” ones? Even in the obvious, blatantly, shockingly “bad” situations? If it is true that most cops are good, and they are aware that one bad apple can ruin the whole barrel, then why do they all protect and cover for the rotten apples? It seems they would want to boot their asses and make an example of them; saying “this isn’t us; this guy was a jackass and doesn’t represent us”. But they don’t
You can't really think "all cops" behave that way. Even if you did, there's no way I'd convince you otherwise.
So no, I don't think "all cops" protect bad cops.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:47 pm to prplhze2000
quote:I'm not tracking. Who would be outnumbered? The shooter or the officer?
Yes he might have been out numbered in that scenario BUT he is slowing them down and gaining time for backup
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:53 pm to Flats
quote:It's not about a risk to you, it's about inefficiency. It's a chaotic response to an already chaotic situation.
Again, that depends on the objective. If innocent children are being executed my objective would be to interrupt that ASAP. Yes, that would be at an increased risk to me.
I've seen it happen - not in school shootings, but medical crises and structure fires for sure.
I mentioned it in another post, but there's a spectrum - everyone stream into the building as soon as you arrive, not forming a team or having a plan versus wait for every available resource to arrive before doing anything.
What I'm saying, and what's been done in practice, is forming at least a 2-man cell and following an established protocol in order for subsequent arriving units to at least have an idea of where those before them have made entry, what areas they've secured, what intel they've gathered...
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:55 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
how were you trained to locate a concealed shooter in an unfamiliar structure? I'm always eager to learn.
The Army method is pretty simple, go to the sound of the gunshots and the screaming. Very effective.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 9:00 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
so because protocol. frick these kids.. let's hide outside the building as shots ring out?
Posted on 5/26/22 at 9:01 pm to down time
quote:That's absolutely not what I said at all.
so because protocol. frick these kids.. let's hide outside the building as shots ring out?
Posted on 5/26/22 at 9:02 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
how were you trained to locate a concealed shooter in an unfamiliar structure?
Better question would be how was that Mom trained?
Posted on 5/26/22 at 9:05 pm to Abraham H Parnassis
quote:
You can't really think "all cops" behave that way. Even if you did, there's no way I'd convince you otherwise.
I do. I can not ever, not one time, remember when a police union didn’t support the officer, in any situation, no matter how out of line. Not once. If you can refute that with an example please do. And since, as far as I am aware, every cop is a member of their union, and the union represents all the cops, I stand by my statement of “all cops”. Change my mind by showing me one of these examples where the police union didn’t support the cop, even after bad behavior had come to light and been verified. They ALWAYS fight for the officer, even in unjustified killings. I expect they will fight to defend the officers involved in the Uvalde incident. Again, my mind could be swayed from the “all cops” part if you could actually provide an example of a union saying “Officer Doe was out of line, he doesn’t represent us and should face repercussions for their unjust actions”. Just one documented case.
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