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re: Stunning Admission By Renowned Atheist; Decline of Christianity is Hurting Society
Posted on 11/8/19 at 7:38 pm to Flats
Posted on 11/8/19 at 7:38 pm to Flats
I'm not going to change the minds of any believers, and I have no interest in changing anyone's mind. Again, I say every person should believe whatever they're comfortable believing. However, before believers criticize the science, understand the science. Look at the evidence..... Or don't, just don't try to convince a non believer that he/she should ignore the evidence. Moreover, don't criticise the people who devote their life's work to contribute to the collective knowledge of humanity.
2
Posted on 11/8/19 at 7:50 pm to millerf43
quote:
However, before believers criticize the science, understand the science. Look at the evidence..... Or don't, just don't try to convince a non believer that he/she should ignore the evidence.
I have no idea what you’re taking about. This discussion has been about morality and philosophy, not science.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 7:56 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
God didn't command people to kill others very often. It was a special decree to accomplish a specific purpose. It also didn't mean that God's chosen people could kill whoever they wanted to for any reason as if they had special permission. God gave the people His law and set boundaries in regards to what they could and couldn't morally do. Murder wasn't something that people were (or are) allowed to do.
Aka subjective morality
See: Elisha and the bears mauling dozens of children for calling him bald
This post was edited on 11/8/19 at 7:58 pm
Posted on 11/8/19 at 8:15 pm to millerf43
quote:Then why tell "believers" to do anything at all?
I'm not going to change the minds of any believers, and I have no interest in changing anyone's mind.
quote:Do you honestly believe that? There are a lot of beliefs that are very destructive.
Again, I say every person should believe whatever they're comfortable believing.
quote:Why? Where is the imperative to do anything in your worldview?
However, before believers criticize the science, understand the science.
quote:Why not ignore the evidence? Why should evidence matter? Why should discussion matter? Why should anything matter in your worldview?
Look at the evidence..... Or don't, just don't try to convince a non believer that he/she should ignore the evidence.
quote:Why not? And why should we do anything for the sake of humanity in your worldview?
Moreover, don't criticise the people who devote their life's work to contribute to the collective knowledge of humanity.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 8:20 pm to bmy
quote:I don't think you and I mean the same thing by "subjective" and "objective". When I say "subjective" in terms of morality, I mean a moral code or standard that originates within the minds of humanity. Not sure how that applies if the God of the Bible is who He claims He is.
Aka subjective morality
quote:Not sure how that applies.
See: Elisha and the bears mauling dozens of children for calling him bald
For one thing, the bear that mauls the children was spurred on by a supernatural force (God); Elisha had no natural control over bears or lions or anything else.
For another, and as I mentioned previously, God has the authority to destroy any law breaker He sees fit. We all die as the consequence of sin, it's just a matter of How God wants to accomplish it. God punished the wicked children who mocked His prophet whom He commissioned to proclaim the truth. The office held high honor and wasn't deserving of such ridicule. God was the one who punished the sinners and that doesn't mean His law is subjective. We all deserve the same fate or worse for our sins against God. We're all held to the same objective standard.
This post was edited on 11/8/19 at 8:21 pm
Posted on 11/8/19 at 8:55 pm to WildManGoose
quote:
Abraham was not led to Judaism ... but he was never a Jew.
Reading its an important skill, because I clearly said
quote:
And he wasn't a member of any of those religions.
quote:
Are you saying the branching of Judaism into Catholicism then the multitude of offshoot Christian denominations is analogous to the differences between Judaism and the Norse pantheon or Native American animistic beliefs?
Again, if you asked a Jew from 2000 years ago if a snake handling church was an eventual possibility, he would be enraged. So if you add an additional 5000 years to the founding of Judaism to get to snake handlers, then yes you can expect the branchings to get even more broad as in Nordic religion, and animalistic beliefs
Because it is a certainty that sects of Jews worshipped idols of animal. How much time would you really need to get to the worship of cows in India, or nature in a new world from a migrating tribe?
quote:
Except that they worship the same God. That's a pretty big link.
Wow, you missed the entire point. Again. For the Bible to be correct, we all once worshipped the same God. But due to cultural migrations his name has been changed, as well as the rituals in observing him. Heard of the trinity? 3 gods, yet the same? How long has that been around? A whole lot less time than it would have taken to go from El Shaddai to Buddha
quote:
I get the feeling you want to tell me what this is, but you don't want to ruin your "credibility"
I have no idea what this even means. You need to quit conjuring up things that continue to reinforce my understanding of your intelligence
Posted on 11/8/19 at 11:06 pm to WildManGoose
quote:
You don't see the idiocy of that statement? An "established sedentary culture" by definition was NOT nomadic and would not have crossed into the Americas.
Oh dear God, I didn't know you were in junior high. Sorry I bothered you.
Because with your teenage logic the Vikings never left Europe for Greenland/Iceland/Americas. And Europeans never found America. And once they got here became too sedentary to move westward.
Migrate, its what all humans have done since their origination. And they would have migrated across the land bridge. Domesticated animals, agricultural abilities, trade systems and all.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 11:55 pm to FooManChoo
At the end of the day, if your God so chooses, he could kill, or have someone else kill, your entire family and, based on your current worldview, you couldn't condemn it as objectively or subjectively immoral.
I could have you defending genocide in a heartbeat by pointing to a few Old Testament verses, so don't come at us with this "Oh, you can't objectively condemn a school shooting as bad" crap when you're in the same boat.
I could have you defending genocide in a heartbeat by pointing to a few Old Testament verses, so don't come at us with this "Oh, you can't objectively condemn a school shooting as bad" crap when you're in the same boat.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 12:11 am to League Champs
quote:
Because with your teenage logic the Vikings never left Europe for Greenland/Iceland/Americas. And Europeans never found America. And once they got here became too sedentary to move westward.
Exploring isn’t the same thing a migrating.
With your first grade understanding of words I don’t know why I bother.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 1:03 am to Azkiger
quote:Since God doesn't command people to kill these days, if someone killed my entire family, it would be in direct violation of God's law, giving me every right to condemn it.
At the end of the day, if your God so chooses, he could kill, or have someone else kill, your entire family and, based on your current worldview, you couldn't condemn it as objectively or subjectively immoral.
God has the right to do what He wants with me, but other humans don't.
quote:I can certainly condemn a school shooting if it happened tomorrow (or Monday, rather). God's law tells humans that they are not allowed to unlawfully take the lives of others.
I could have you defending genocide in a heartbeat by pointing to a few Old Testament verses, so don't come at us with this "Oh, you can't objectively condemn a school shooting as bad" crap when you're in the same boat.
You, however, have no basis to condemn genocide of any flavor because without God, morality is nothing more than an individual preference. If you remove God, you remove the necessity for human value and moral absolutes.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 1:17 am to Perfect Circle
Religion has been used to keep the peasants in order for centuries.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 8:22 am to LSU2a
quote:Religion can be used for all sorts of things. The question is whether or not a particular religion or belief is also true.
Religion has been used to keep the peasants in order for centuries.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 8:36 am to FooManChoo
American Christians have done way more to contribute to the decline of Christian values than atheists could ever try to.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 8:45 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Since God doesn't command people to kill these days
I didn't know you were omniscient. shite you should have told me, would have saved me a lot of time disagreeing with you.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 8:48 am to TopFlightSecurity
quote:
American Christians have done way more to contribute to the decline of Christian values than atheists could ever try to.
Atheists are more preachy about what they believe than any Christian alive.
don't believe me? Read this thread.
I am a true agnostic. I don't give a shite. Spout your nonsense whatever it is. Nobody knows why we are here or if there is or isn't any greater meaning to life.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 9:00 am to TopFlightSecurity
quote:In a sense I agree with you. The preaching of the gospel has waned and the prosperity gospel and self-help seminars have taken its place in many churches in past decades. It’s the power of the gospel that changes hearts and minds for Christ, not the law.
American Christians have done way more to contribute to the decline of Christian values than atheists could ever try to.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 9:04 am to FooManChoo
Because many members of the clergy have not truly experienced the good news and are unable to speak to it and have peddled that which you have described
Take on the form of godliness but deny its power
Take on the form of godliness but deny its power
Posted on 11/9/19 at 9:24 am to FooManChoo
quote:
When I speak of moral objectivity, I'm not talking about how people experience morality. I'm talking about how people receive morality. Moral objectivity is referencing a moral standard that transcends the individual human mind and exists outside of humanity.
Which is a subjective definition because experiencing morality can impact how one receives morality, even objective morality.
Give me an example of a moral absolute, something that comes from outside humanity.
quote:
Subjectivity is denoted by the origin of the standard:
I disagree. The hallmark of subjectivity is interpretation and that interpretation is built by experiences. The interpretation is what creates the subjectivity.
quote:
If morality is subjective and thus originates within our own minds, then it cannot be objective and therefore there cannot be one, single standard that can be rationally used to compare to others.
And that's where the sticking point comes in. You're trying to make an objective observation over something that is inherently subjective. Objective morals can be reached subjectively because objectivity is the extreme end of the subjectivity spectrum.
It's like saying you have a scale of greys but not allowing black or white (which are the necessary ingredients to make grey).
Posted on 11/9/19 at 9:40 am to Azkiger
quote:You don’t have to be omniscient to know this. You just need to read your Bible and try to understand why God has interacted with humanity the way He has in the past and what age we live in now.
I didn't know you were omniscient. shite you should have told me, would have saved me a lot of time disagreeing with you.
God doesn’t act arbitrarily. All that happens is part of His larger redemptive plan. The reason why certain tribes were told to be wiped out is so that God could cleanse the promised land for His chosen people. It had a second purpose of strengthening faith in God by showing His people that He would make them victorious as long as they remained faithful, and that also resulted in the judgment of God’s enemies.
Those events happened in history for a specific purpose and there is no need for that any longer because the land was a means that God used to both physically separate His chosen people from the other nations as well as a physical sign that God keeps His promises. The physical nation of Israel ultimately saw its fulfillment in the spiritual nation of the Church and the embodiment of Jesus Christ, Himself, who obeyed as the people were supposed to obey.
So yes, I know that God wouldn’t command such things any longer because there is no reason for God to do so given that His revelation is complete and His promises are either already fulfilled or are being fulfilled in the commission that He’s given the Church.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:09 am to gthog61
quote:
Atheists are more preachy about what they believe than any Christian alive.
Who *started* this thread? Who started the thread about Darwin and the Origin of Species? Some people are pushy about their beliefs, those people are on both sides of the fence.
quote:
I am a true agnostic.
And yet, you're still either a theist or an atheist.
Theism = belief in a higher power.
A = without.
Atheism = without belief in a higher power.
You either have a belief in a higher power, or you don't.
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