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Message
re: Some thoughts on IQ
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:06 pm to Narax
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:06 pm to Narax
quote:
As a group, compared to in the way that other races do. Do you really actually and truly think the authors meant something so completely racist? Or is this an avoidance method?
Even if the author meant “more than half,” he was still wrong. You can draw your own conclusions about his motivation for making a factually incorrect and racially disparaging statement.
quote:
SES is not a factor, it's an increased likelihood of other negative factors.
Plenty of research disagrees with you.
quote:
Overall, low-income households, which are also more likely to be single-parent and specifically single-mother homes, have lower frequencies of daily shared reading compared to higher income or married households, and this disparity has been stable over time
LINK
quote:
Mothers are more likely than fathers to read to their child every day (55% vs. 45%) as are parents under 40 (55% vs. 43%), those with income over $50,000 (60% vs. 42%) and those with at least some college education (59% vs. 36%).
LINK
quote:
SES to note as I mentioned about the bar makes you more likely to statistically get drunk but it itself is not what makes you drunk.
You’re claiming black people are bad parents and don’t read to their kids, generally speaking. The fact that more parents with higher income levels and with more education do read to their kids is purely coincidental because the determining factor of whether or not a parent will read to their child is the parent’s race. Is that correct?
quote:
Do you think all cultures value education the same?
You are using “culture” as a dog whistle.
It’s wild that you’re choosing to die on this hill after you yourself posted data showing 75% of black families do read to their young kids. But you want to pretend that the author meant “most black people don’t read to their kids” even though you know that’s also not true. I don’t get it.
This post was edited on 8/1/25 at 9:15 pm
3
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:12 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
IQ the thing is how well your brain works. It's actual capabilities. Our tools that we use to attempt to measure this thing, while certainly pretty good, are still trying to measure something VERY indirectly. Since we have no tools to literally measure how well the machinery of the brain is working, we're left with tools that ATTEMPT to measure without requiring massive education but, there's only so much you can do in that area.
I do agree, but it really is circular reasoning.
IQ is defined as the non-malleable intelligence a person has. (Or as I put it to be more precise, the ceiling).
Once defined that way, even if every sign such as test scores move up, (which is why I phrased it as the floor), it can be said that based on the definition, their intelligence never went up and was hereditary.
quote:
So, this ends up with the measurement tool "appearing" to show improving IQ when all it's doing is measuring improvement the potential preparation for an IQ test.
But again, humans get more intelligent overtime. Education measurable increases the ease that they do things, logical and trained paths make more complex tasks easy.
quote:
Now, to be sure, you can likely do stupid shite to DAMAGE the machinery of the brain and, I suspect good nutrition and other environmental factors can allow the machinery to work at its best level. But, this is STILL a case of the same machinery. Kind of like you and I might BOTH have old Mustang 3.0 engines. They have the same "IQ(horsepower)". But, I did oil changes every 5000 miles and you don't know what an oil change is.
Yup, which I referred to as lowering the ceiling.
quote:
Bottom line, you get the machine you get. If you get a 3 cylinder chevy chevette engine, all the oil changes in the world aren't going to result in 0-60 in less than a month. LOL
But this is not how the brain works, especially in the early years, there are a large number of connections that are created then pruned.
Kim Peek's brain had to rewire due to missing sections and connections.
If the hardware is changing, (and our brains are quantum level instruments) then how well your brain works is always changing.
Maybe not by a lot, and by the time you hit say 8, your hardware is mostly out of the factory.
But again it's semantics that doesn't really line up with brain plasticity. Learning really changes your brain.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:27 pm to 4cubbies
quote:That really was not the claim was it?
I don't buy the claim that black parents across all education and income levels don't read to their kids.
The effort was to identify reasons for low IQ. After logically ruling out other factors, heredity and culture remained. There is no question that heredity plays a major role in IQ. Zero. Zip. Nada. Contentions to the contrary are contrived fiction. Apparently this particular study tried to call that fact to question. That attempt should raise red flags regarding validity.
Given those concerns, the remaining factor cited is "culture" (a term I'm not fond of), or stereotypical low SES family habits (SLSESFH).
With regard to SLSESFH, single parents are significantly burdened to care for others, even their own children. It has nothing to do with caring or love. It has to do with the logistics and difficulty of single parenting. Single parent Black households occur at a frequency of 50%. 50% is 2.5-fold that of White or Asian (20%) HH frequencies.
Further, and worse yet, 50% of US Black adults suffer from Level 1 low-literacy (3rd grade reading level or below). That's as opposed to 16% of White adults. It's hard to read to your child when you cannot read yourself. Again, it's a fact which has nothing to do with caring, or love of a parent for his/her child. As much as I'd like to wishcast those facts into a different paradigm, the situation is what it is.
Those are rough stats to overcome in any effective parenting context. Claiming that they'd not adversely contribute to the child rearing environment regardless of skin color. The problem being, they are stats wildly disproportionately preponderate in the Black Community. Denying that negates any real chance of correcting the problem.
This post was edited on 8/2/25 at 7:05 am
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:34 pm to Narax
quote:
I do agree, but it really is circular reasoning.
IQ is defined as the non-malleable intelligence a person has. (Or as I put it to be more precise, the ceiling).
Once defined that way, even if every sign such as test scores move up, (which is why I phrased it as the floor), it can be said that based on the definition, their intelligence never went up and was hereditary.
Meh. I do think it's relatively static but at the same time, the fundamental problem is that we really aren't measuring IQ............we are more measuring evidence of IQ............kinda like 2 steps removed from ACTUAL IQ.
quote:Forgive me. I can't tell if you are asserting that humans OVERALL get more intelligent or, if individuals get more intelligent over time. If the latter, I think this is likely an artifact of measurement problems. I mean, Einstein probably seemed like a bright as frick 3 year old, but, there's no super effective way to measure it.
But again, humans get more intelligent overtime. Education measurable increases the ease that they do things, logical and trained paths make more complex tasks easy.
quote:Well, I am working with a clumsy metaphor to be sure. How about this. No matter how hard you work, you're not getting a Lamborghini V12 into that damned Chevy Chevetta engine compartment. :) No amount of Broccoli is gonna get you there.
But this is not how the brain works, especially in the early years, there are a large number of connections that are created then pruned.
At the end of the day though, until we come up with some tool that measure how well a brain works DIRECTLY, we're gonna have the measurement probem and my base assertion is, if you were born with the brain of a fruit bat, you aren't going to eat your way, environment your way or get great parents your way into being a Chemical Engineer. :)
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:35 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Even if the author meant “more than half,” he was still wrong. You can draw your own conclusions about his motivation for making a factually incorrect and racially disparaging statement.
So you don't know what he meant, and no one else is up in arms with torches...
quote:
Plenty of research disagrees with you.
Yes, some research claims that it is the combination of events common to poverty that causes an additional level of damage.
It was rather weak on proof. They already had specific causes of damage, and the totality of the IQ hit was smaller than the individual components in other studies.
quote:
Overall, low-income households, which are also more likely to be single-parent and specifically single-mother homes, have lower frequencies of daily shared reading compared to higher income or married households, and this disparity has been stable over time
Yes, what came first the chicken or the egg?
Poor people in America had high marriage rates for much of American history.
Single parents have half the time to devote to each child.
So why did poor people stop getting married when they succeeded at it for thousands of years.
Greece is poor, they have only a 13% out of wedlock rate (Turkey 2.8%)to our 40% (>70% in the African American community).
Why is it now that the poor in America have suddenly lost the ability to be married.
quote:
Mothers are more likely than fathers to read to their child every day (55% vs. 45%) as are parents under 40 (55% vs. 43%), those with income over $50,000 (60% vs. 42%) and those with at least some college education (59% vs. 36%).
Yes, so there are a number of things, many of them not associated with Poverty.
quote:
You’re claiming black people are bad parents and don’t read to their kids, generally speaking. The fact that more parents with higher income levels and with more education do read to their kids is purely coincidental because the determining factor of whether or not a parent will read to their child is the parent’s race. Is that correct?
*Sigh*
I'm claiming there is an increased rate of single parent households in the black community that far exceeds other ethnic groups. (this is a measured fact).
I am claiming that single parent households have half (I checked this mathematically) the number of parents as a two parent household.
Therefore Black households on average have less parents in the household who can read to children.
This results in the children having less time with their parents.
This results in worse intellectual outcomes at a higher rate.
quote:
The fact that more parents with higher income levels and with more education do read to their kids is purely coincidental because the determining factor of whether or not a parent will read to their child is the parent’s race. Is that correct?
Swing and a miss!
I have repeatedly called out the lack of a father in the household as the culprit.
I happen to think Black individuals who get married produce excellent children, I know quite a few myself.
I also know quite a few white people who happened to not do the whole married thing.
I've seen what that leads to.
Black people are not immune from the problems that White Hispanic and Asian people have when they avoid marriage and have children out of wedlock.
quote:
You are using “culture” as a dog whistle.
I'm really not, you see a racist around every corner.
I'm using culture in the actual meaning
quote:
Culture is a concept that encompasses the social behavior, institutions, and norms found in human societies, as well as the knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, capabilities, attitudes, and habits of the individuals in these groups
I really don't see a "Black culture" in the way you see it.
I see demographics of unmarried parents.
I see when people try to group people as a race (White people for example).
The statistics of that race will be a sum of all the cultures you include in that definition.
Hence adding the Mormons and Amish to White people reduces the number of single parent households.
Adding large numbers of people from progressive inner cities to black people will add a significantly increased number of single parents.
I'm more than happy to talk about what's wrong with single moms, but you won't like that one either.
This post was edited on 8/1/25 at 9:45 pm
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:37 pm to Schleynole
quote:
So true. I've loved history my whole life except in a history class. You can't learn anything with any depth with the amount of time they spend on it. We spent like 2 days covering napoleon Bonaparte in the 7th grade. You don't learn any nuances. It's all black and white. Abraham Lincoln and MLK were taught as godlike figures but then you read about them and their terrible. Any objective look at history of the past 2 thousand years would center around Jesus but he's not taught.
Well said!
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:37 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Overall, low-income households, which are also more likely to be single-parent and specifically single-mother homes, have lower frequencies of daily shared reading compared to higher income or married households, and this disparity has been stable over time
So, stupid people who had parents who didn't prioritize education and were likely dumb themselves) become parents who don't prioritize education and raise stupid kids. Water is wet.
(
quote:
You’re claiming black people are bad parents and don’t read to their kids, generally speaking. The fact that more parents with higher income levels and with more education do read to their kids is purely coincidental because the determining factor of whether or not a parent will read to their child is the parent’s race. Is that correct?
No matter which cross section of black parents you choose, their counterpart cross seection among whites or Asians is performing better. PERIOD.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:39 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
You are using “culture” as a dog whistle.
It’s wild that you’re choosing to die on this hill after you yourself posted data showing 75% of black families do read to their young kids. But you want to pretend that the author meant “most black people don’t read to their kids” even though you know that’s also not true. I don’t get it.
The author said they read to their kids LESS than other races. The fact that you desperately want to CHANGE what the author said seems a shade dishonest. Not that I'm surprised.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:40 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
Forgive me. I can't tell if you are asserting that humans OVERALL get more intelligent or, if individuals get more intelligent over time. If the latter, I think this is likely an artifact of measurement problems. I mean, Einstein probably seemed like a bright as frick 3 year old, but, there's no super effective way to measure it.
Yes, apologies I should have been clear, individuals.
We know we can solve problems much easier at 25 than at 5.
This is why IQ tests are weighted by age, because older people will do better on them then children.
quote:
Well, I am working with a clumsy metaphor to be sure. How about this. No matter how hard you work, you're not getting a Lamborghini V12 into that damned Chevy Chevetta engine compartment. :) No amount of Broccoli is gonna get you there.
Yes, agreed, though I'm unsure when the "brain decides it's going to be a Chevetta or a Lambo engine.
quote:
At the end of the day though, until we come up with some tool that measure how well a brain works DIRECTLY, we're gonna have the measurement probem and my base assertion is, if you were born with the brain of a fruit bat, you aren't going to eat your way, environment your way or get great parents your way into being a Chemical Engineer. :)
Yes I think we do fundamentally agree, its as good as we can determine right now.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:44 pm to Narax
quote:2 things. 1. It would probably be better to say they ATTEMPT to weight by age which itself, is certainly as much art as science. And, 2. This kind of reinforces the point that while an IQ test TRIES to avoid just being a test of how much education you have, it's nearly impossible to design on devoid of this factor.
This is why IQ tests are weighted by age, because older people will do better on them then children.
quote:
Yes I think we do fundamentally agree, its as good as we can determine right now.
Yeah. The challenge to measuring IQ is without a direct way, you're left sort doing the equivalent of asking 100 people after a rock concert that YOU DID NOT attend, "how loud was it"............and then, based on that, you apply a decible level..........even though no one had a noise meter. You'll probably get close with experience, but, still a blunt tool.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:47 pm to Narax
quote:
This is why IQ tests are weighted by age, because older people will do better on them then children.
By the way, this subject interests me so much because as a child, I was barraged with IQ tests because back then, "gifted programs" had become a big deal in some schools. So, yeah. I've had the pleasure, or curse, depending upon how you look at it of having my IQ measured at various moments from about age 8 until 25. And, my score was remarkably static. Sure, increased a TINY bit, but remarkably static. And no, I am NOT interested in discussing my score. That's never been a good path to go down in my life as you can imagine.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:48 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
Yeah. The challenge to measuring IQ is without a direct way, you're left sort doing the equivalent of asking 100 people after a rock concert that YOU DID NOT attend, "how loud was it"............and then, based on that, you apply a decible level..........even though no one had a noise meter. You'll probably get close with experience, but, still a blunt tool.
When put that way it's still shockingly accurate are predicting how loud the rock concert will be in the future!
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:49 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I have black mom friends that I know read to their kids. That's such a ridiculous claim to make.
Well, to be fair, I mis-remembered the article somewhat (sorry about that). They were saying that possibilities like that need to be explored rather than the ones that we know it can't be (poverty and education) and that we can't test (heredity).
That said, I'm not sure why you'd say it was a ridiculous claim (even if it was a claim instead of an advocated point to explore.) Just because you have anecdotal evidence to the contrary?
There's some reason for the gap. If it's not educational disparities and it's not poverty and it's not single parenthood, it's got to be either some aspect of culture or as far as I can see the only thing left is heredity.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 9:52 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I just took issue with the claim that virtually no black parents read to their kids.
Well, no one on this thread made that claim but you.
Go back and read what I posted again. That's not what I said.
quote:
I think it’s a culture of poverty/trashiness problem
If that means what I think it means—again—how do you explain the fact that the IQ gap persists among black children of affluent families?
Posted on 8/2/25 at 12:44 am to anc
You forgot Ballot Stuffer
Posted on 8/2/25 at 7:54 am to 4cubbies
quote:I've re-scanned this thread. I cannot find a claim that virtually no black parents read to their kids. If someone said that, please link the post or quote it directly.
I just took issue with the claim that virtually no black parents read to their kids.
It seems your response falls into a pattern of argument based on mischaracterization of posts, rather than what was actually said in the posts, or intended. Sometimes that's probably accidental, and attributable to quick reads or conflation of one poster's thoughts with another.
It's hard to conclude though that this incidence was anything sort of a deliberate mischaracterization.
I guess that conclusion makes me "grumpy."
Posted on 8/2/25 at 8:10 am to scottydoesntknow
The reality is that IQ tests are a very good predictor of academic success,
according to the few experts in the field who I know…
Posted on 8/2/25 at 8:49 am to Narax
The overall preponderance of evidence doesn't support that. IQ tests don't test your ability to memorize or even solve problems. It tests pattern recognition. It's not something you can study for.
While there are small variations in individual adult test scores, and "warming up" with brain puzzles ahead of time might improve your score by a few points, no significant improval will be made.
If you're 20 years old and scored a 100. You're just not going to score a 120. Ever. At least as far as we know.
If you can find out a way to permanently boost someone's IQ you'll basically be curing cancer. Honestly, such a discovery would be even bigger than that. It'd be up there with the wheel and fire. The global impact would be insane.
While there are small variations in individual adult test scores, and "warming up" with brain puzzles ahead of time might improve your score by a few points, no significant improval will be made.
If you're 20 years old and scored a 100. You're just not going to score a 120. Ever. At least as far as we know.
If you can find out a way to permanently boost someone's IQ you'll basically be curing cancer. Honestly, such a discovery would be even bigger than that. It'd be up there with the wheel and fire. The global impact would be insane.
This post was edited on 8/2/25 at 8:49 am
Posted on 8/2/25 at 8:57 am to anc
Does anyone know their IQ? Seems like we are constantly just estimating each other’s IQ but does anyone actually test out?
Posted on 8/2/25 at 8:59 am to OceanMan
quote:
Does anyone know their IQ? Seems like we are constantly just estimating each other’s IQ but does anyone actually test out?
I know what I tested as a kid. I've never tested as an adult.
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