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re: Questions about a federal fair tax.

Posted on 6/15/24 at 6:53 am to
Posted by novabill
Crossville, TN
Member since Sep 2005
10737 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 6:53 am to
quote:

quote:
They even propose a tax on new home purchases. Can you imagine how much would be? And the proposal is for a 23% tax. There were a few things that I don’t agree should be taxed.


Under a consumption tax system, every item “consumed” is taxed. From bread to home purchase- it’s taxed. Even things like stock purchases gets taxed.
The rate against various items would vary but all items purchased- for any reason- gets taxed.



So, by taxing building materials and then taxing the home sale, the home is being taxed twice?

I'd like to see more math on this
If I am taxed the same overall, what is the excitement about
Posted by Loserman
Member since Sep 2007
23057 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 6:57 am to
With the collapse of the Petrodollar the Great Reset is here
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
80339 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:03 am to
quote:

They always exclude necessities like food, clothing etc. In these fair tax scenarios.


Under the fair tax the government pays everyone a prebate to offset those.

Also used goods aren't taxed under the fair tax. So you can buy used cars, furniture, appliances, etc., and go tax-free.
Posted by dartman
baton rouge
Member since Nov 2015
173 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:04 am to
Under the current income tax system, "middle class" WAGE EARNERS shoulder most of the burden by paying more than their share.

The Fair Tax addresses the underground cash economy where income is never reported. Everyone who enjoys the benefits of living in this country should have "skin in the game". If you make a little, you should pay a little... make a lot, pay a lot. Work for cash, you're taxed when you spend it.

The Fair Tax has a built-in adjustment to address the needs of those who are below poverty level. Everyone would receive a "prebate" equal to the amount of tax that would be collected on sales up to poverty level purchases. That way, everyone receives the same exemption, no special carve-outs.

Aside from that, consider that the IRS takes "their" share out of your paycheck BEFORE you are entitiled to it. With the Fair Tax, YOU decide when to pay a tax, not the IRS. No more April 15th or tax accountants, No taxes on your savings unless you spend it.

I'm sure many of you can see other benefits from doing away with the current inefficient and unfair system of taxation. Our country needs taxes to pay for our NEEDS but the average citizen shouldn't be subjected to abusive agency scrutiny or unfair burden along the way.

The Fair Tax is more in line with what you would expect to see in a "Free Society". It's YOUR money, not the IRS's!
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
80339 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:16 am to
quote:

Our country needs taxes to pay for our NEEDS but the average citizen shouldn't be subjected to abusive agency scrutiny or unfair burden along the way.


The government is going to get its revenue regardless of the tax system that is utilized.

Of the systems, the fair tax is the least abusive to the citizens. You won't have to worry about government revenue agents with guns knocking on your door.

If I'm going to hand money to the government, I prefer to do it with the least violent system available.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:20 am to
Numbers I saw from some time ago estimated that a flat tax would be around 15% and a consumption tax would be around 15%. They just tax different things.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467695 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:21 am to
quote:

If it generates the same or more revenue than who the hell would be against it?

It would increase taxes on the majority of the country, so they would.
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
80339 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:22 am to
Like I said the government is going to get its money no matter the system used.

So let's pick the least intrusive and least violent one.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467695 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:23 am to
quote:

Like I said the government is going to get its money no matter the system used.

So let's pick the least intrusive and least violent one.

I don't disagree. From a fundamental/fair assessment, the plan is better than income tax for sure. The problem is most people who say they're for it, don't realize they will ultimately pay more in taxes.
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
80339 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 7:41 am to
quote:

people who say they're for it, don't realize they will ultimately pay more in taxes.


Then they might start paying more attention to who they vote for.
Posted by Jimmy Russel
Member since Nov 2021
760 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 8:29 am to
The income tax is not about generating revenue — it is about governing behavior.
Posted by dgnx6
Member since Feb 2006
86387 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 8:40 am to
quote:

So at current spending the rate would need to be closer to 30-50% to have any chance of balancing the budget.



Well 80 billion wouldn’t be going to the IRS so there is one cut to the budget.

We easily could make other cuts, like Ukraine spending.

This post was edited on 6/15/24 at 8:43 am
Posted by SlidellCajun
Slidell la
Member since May 2019
16098 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 2:25 pm to
quote:

So, by taxing building materials and then taxing the home sale, the home is being taxed twice?



The material is taxed at point of purchase which aggregates toward the whole cost of the house. There isn’t another tax at closing so the levy is once when materials are bought
Posted by Hopeful Doc
Member since Sep 2010
15388 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

If it generates the same or more revenue than who the hell would be against it?



Easy to answer. Data first, opinion after:

Anyone whose current buying power is reduced vs the current system would be unlikely to support this.
If you look at these tables, the current system takes 14.9% of all wages earned. The bottom 50% pay an average rate of 3.3%. So they’ll only see a ‘bump’ in income of well under 10% (they don’t all pay exactly 3.3%). The average number, in dollars, of taxes paid by this 50% is $667, or around $55 a month. While we don’t know what the number is, there’s very little chance that any consumption tax levied on this group is going to keep their buying power neutral or increase it. So, you would probably get opposition from them, despite it being a much more fair way to levy taxes on everyone (and capture a much bigger portion of investment dollars that are spent than current, if I were to wager, which I think is the argument that it is going to increase the total of taxes collected. Without looking at the numbers, I’d imagine the current dollars subjected to capital gains rather than income taxes that would then be raised by a consumption tax that’s higher than the current capital gains rate would not have a particularly significant impact on the ability to run the country).
Posted by TigerAxeOK
Where I lay my head is home.
Member since Dec 2016
35645 posts
Posted on 6/15/24 at 3:34 pm to
quote:

My biggest question is this, how much revenue would it potentially generate for the government? If it generates the same or more revenue than who the hell would be against it?



The 47% of the country not paying any income tax. Pretty nifty that 47% experience no direct consequences of their voting as it relates to taxes.

53% do pay income tax.

The 47% is the minority. That's the inconvenient quiet part that they refuse to acknowledge out loud. That side is always so "anti-Electoral College" and "pro-Popular Vote"... except for on this one issue where the majority actually have a tax liability and should support a fair tax. Make more, spend more, have ability to buy more and pay more. Make less, spend less, don't have the potential liability of those who make more. It's simple.

Problem is, Congress doesn't want to have to do their primary job, which is to pass an annual balanced budget. How many of them even realize that passing a budget is their main job? They have failed to do so since way back when I was in high school in the 90s when the last actual budget was passed. They just ram everything through in omnibus bills that allow spending on items and proposals that are prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.

And we fricking allow it! Instead of demanding that Congress do their job and look at whatever funds are available to allocate them where they are best spent, we just let them keep raising the credit card limit and lowering the minimum payments and practicing actively long term dereliction of duty. Soon, well over 50% of the populace will not pay taxes, and actually be the majority that gets to give an excuse to tax us even more.
Posted by tigerterrace
Mobile, Alabama
Member since Sep 2016
3475 posts
Posted on 6/16/24 at 12:36 am to
Just get rid of the tax credits. No way a person paying nothing or under $1000 should be getting 4-5k refunds.

The most you should get is what you actually paid in.
Posted by novabill
Crossville, TN
Member since Sep 2005
10737 posts
Posted on 6/17/24 at 6:45 pm to
quote:

The material is taxed at point of purchase which aggregates toward the whole cost of the house. There isn’t another tax at closing so the levy is once when materials are bought


This makes sense.

So the cost of the house winds up being what 25% more? Or is the price of the materials reduced before the sales tax due to the reduction of other taxes that are currently baked into the costs?
Posted by DavidTheGnome
Monroe
Member since Apr 2015
31349 posts
Posted on 6/17/24 at 6:53 pm to
quote:

If it generates the same or more revenue than who the hell would be against it?



Poor people who are just barely scraping by and currently have to spend every dime they make just to survive. They would be disproportionately negatively impacted by this so calling it a fair tax is a bit of a misnomer.
Posted by DavidTheGnome
Monroe
Member since Apr 2015
31349 posts
Posted on 6/17/24 at 7:00 pm to
quote:

Of the systems, the fair tax is the least abusive to the citizens.



Not true, it disproportionately impacts the people who can least afford it. Shifting the burden from the people who can to the people who can’t. If passed either a massive increase in welfare would be required simply for the bottom to be able to exist or there’d be mass chaos/thefts followed by I’d imagine revolution. When people can’t even survive as it is currently the last thing they feel like hearing is the people who can whining they don’t pay enough (enough of what?).
Posted by Back to Scat
Dry Prong
Member since Feb 2024
489 posts
Posted on 6/17/24 at 7:07 pm to
[img]The 47% of the country not paying any income tax. Pretty nifty that 47% experience no direct consequences of their voting as it relates to taxes[/img]

Where do you get this number? Are you counting children? people with no income?
My mother doesn't pay income tax.. She is retired has some income, but takes a standard deduction. You want to get rid of the standard deduction?
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