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re: Pope Francis permits Priests to bless same sex couples in major Vatican doctrine change

Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:09 pm to
Posted by heymama
Louisiana
Member since Jul 2022
428 posts
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:09 pm to
quote:

I never thought I would see a Pope that is so left on the majority of tings

Would you agree that Jesus was kind of “left” on the majority of things?
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:17 pm to
quote:

I have backed up everything I have said with scripture.



You quoted the book of Maccabees which isn’t scripture, then gave your own spin on others. Your take on Mary is breathtaking in its grasping.
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:36 pm to
quote:

You quoted the book of Maccabees which isn’t scripture, then gave your own spin on others. Your take on Mary is breathtaking in its graspin


It is scripture . It’s in the same Bible that Jesus used which is the Septuagint. The Greek translation which was commissioned by the Jews. Which was confirmed by the Dead Sea scrolls.
Posted by BCBAMA
Southeast Alabama
Member since Apr 2016
994 posts
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:52 pm to
As if no one saw this coming
Posted by Sofaking2
Member since Apr 2023
21241 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 12:39 am to
quote:

I think this is more misinformation by MSM
maybe, but Francis purposely muddies the water on many issues. He wants weaponized ambiguity. This Pope is definitely a progressive. He wants to remake the Church in his image.
Posted by FreeState
Member since Jun 2012
3679 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 12:55 am to
Yet they condemn Freemasonry.
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 1:17 am to
quote:

Yet they condemn Freemasonry.


Because he was a liar from the beginning
Posted by Mr. Misanthrope
Cloud 8
Member since Nov 2012
6434 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 1:20 am to
quote:

Gay couples aren’t trying to live a righteous life, they are asking for their sin to be an exception.
Exactly.

[Disclaimer-I’m not a Roman Catholic] Having said that, unless I’m mistaken, Roman Catholic Doctrine is that the physical sexual expression of love can only take place between a man and a woman, joined together by the Sacrament of Marriage, and, that the physical expression of marital love is fully open, without hinderance, to the hope and possibility of children.

All other sexual acts, homosexual, heterosexual, or autoerotic are disordered and sinful. It’s not a witch hunt or persecution of homosexuals. Under the Roman Catholic doctrine, if my understanding is accurate, there’s plenty of sin to go around and it swamps plenty of other boats besides homosexual ones.

You asked:
quote:

Why do I struggle to live a chaste life if at the end of the day chastity no longer matters? That’s what blessing a gay union does, it says loudly chastity doesn’t matter.

It’s a fair question, and frankly, the biggest one.
Posted by Toadman005
America
Member since Nov 2023
303 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 1:45 am to
Ignorant idiot.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 2:07 am to
quote:

There is a HUGE difference between being a sinner (which we all are) and struggling to live a righteous life and being a sinner and accepting it. Gay couples aren’t trying to live a righteous life, they are asking for their sin to be an exception.


Yep
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 2:36 am
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71155 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 5:21 am to
Has anyone in this thread actually read the letter in question, or are they just trusting what the mainstream media is saying?

For those of you curious and charitable enough to seek out the information yourself, the entire document that the Vatican put out yesterday is linked below:

The Holy See

Here is what it says on the Sacrament of Marriage:

quote:

I. The Blessing in the Sacrament of Marriage

4. Pope Francis’ recent response to the second of the five questions posed by two Cardinals[4] offers an opportunity to explore this issue further, especially in its pastoral implications. It is a matter of avoiding that “something that is not marriage is being recognized as marriage.”[5] Therefore, rites and prayers that could create confusion between what constitutes marriage—which is the “exclusive, stable, and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally open to the generation of children”[6]—and what contradicts it are inadmissible. This conviction is grounded in the perennial Catholic doctrine of marriage; it is only in this context that sexual relations find their natural, proper, and fully human meaning. The Church’s doctrine on this point remains firm.

5. This is also the understanding of marriage that is offered by the Gospel. For this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion. Such is also the meaning of the Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which states that the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex.

6. It should be emphasized that in the Rite of the Sacrament of Marriage, this concerns not just any blessing but a gesture reserved to the ordained minister. In this case, the blessing given by the ordained minister is tied directly to the specific union of a man and a woman, who establish an exclusive and indissoluble covenant by their consent. This fact allows us to highlight the risk of confusing a blessing given to any other union with the Rite that is proper to the Sacrament of Marriage.
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 5:30 am
Posted by Tarps99
Lafourche Parish
Member since Apr 2017
12713 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 5:25 am to
quote:

Either way, it seems like a slippery slope to offer gay marriages.


Reminds me of the old saying, “I will just put the tip in.” Next thing you know or the next pope will allow full gay marriage ceremonies in church.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71155 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 5:31 am to
quote:

Next thing you know or the next pope will allow full gay marriage ceremonies in church.



The pope does not have the power or the authority to allow such a thing.
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
59878 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 6:48 am to
did the pope just permit gay marriage?

Simple answer no he did not. This document from dicastery actually upholds the traditional teaching on marriage, the Church has taught since its inception. However the "change" seems to be to allow pastors to bless those in same sex relationships. What that means isn't clear and causes a lot of controversy. But to suggest that the Pope is changing church teaching is far from the truth.

Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
59878 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 6:58 am to
quote:

Having said that, unless I’m mistaken, Roman Catholic Doctrine is that the physical sexual expression of love can only take place between a man and a woman, joined together by the Sacrament of Marriage, and, that the physical expression of marital love is fully open, without hinderance, to the hope and possibility of children.


exactly, nice explanation

quote:

All other sexual acts, homosexual, heterosexual, or autoerotic are disordered and sinful. It’s not a witch hunt or persecution of homosexuals. Under the Roman Catholic doctrine, if my understanding is accurate, there’s plenty of sin to go around and it swamps plenty of other boats besides homosexual ones.


I think it's important to understand that there is different levels of sin. Some sins are serious sins, others are minor. All sin offends God but only some sin is deadly.

Chastity and homosexuality are explained well by the Catechism.

quote:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.



quote:

Why do I struggle to live a chaste life if at the end of the day chastity no longer matters? That’s what blessing a gay union does, it says loudly chastity doesn’t matter.

It’s a fair question, and frankly, the biggest one.


The document clearly states that we are not blessing the union. I believe the best interpretation of the document is that a priest would bless the people in a relationship. I don't think anyone would have an issue blessing a gay man or woman. That wouldn't be saying I approve of your lifestyle, rather I ask God to help you grow in your faith.
Posted by RealityWinsOut
Member since Oct 2023
1454 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:01 am to
quote:

catholictigerfan

So this thread is to long to read, so wonering...

The Pope didn't approve gay "marriage" but approved homosexual living? Especially homosexual partnerships. If that's the case, what will get a homosexual to repent and leave that lifestyle?

What is the difference in blessing this and blessing out of wedlock sexual behavior and unmarried living together? How about blessing a bigamist household/lifestyle?

It's not a "different levels of sin" thing, as homosexuality is an abomination. Based on God's requirement to stay abstinent until Biblical man/woman marriage, and not to stray from that marriage. I get it, no one is perfect, but how is "blessing" anything outside of that acceptable and not "approving" of it?

I like how High Hewitt put it this morning.... how the Pope is now just a grumpy old man that is now just looking to piss people off, and can only pray that the next guy is young and gets things back on track.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
55314 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:05 am to
Bro, the resident Prots are busy bashing Catholics. They don't have time to read anything.

Posted by RockyMtnTigerWDE
War Damn Eagle Dad!
Member since Oct 2010
108979 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:07 am to
The Catholic Church is lost. Your pope fears man over God.
Posted by Vacherie Saint
Member since Aug 2015
47575 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:11 am to
If the Roman Catholic church is going to start moving into modern times, how about allowing clergy to marry?

You'd have more priests.
They'd be more relatable since they'd be from the community and not from the Philippines.
They'd be able to counsel better since they'd have relationship and family experience.
It would virtually eliminate the sex scandals and child predation.

Its time.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
55314 posts
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:16 am to
quote:

I ask God to help you grow in your faith.


You are correct to ask for the "bottom line up front" statement in this whole debate, so thanks for that.

I feel the same way, and, I think this recent post captures the essence of the whole debate. Here's his quote:

quote:

I ask God to help you grow in your faith.


This new Blessing is the Priest praying to God to help the individual people grow in their Roman Catholic Faith.

Standing alone and without assuming that it means more than that, this new Blessing seems harmless, per se.

But, what about the argument that it will generate lots of confusion because people will say that the RCC is blessing Gay Marriage? It's the truth - it WILL cause that kind of confusion.

But if we balance the two sides on a scale, which side has more weight? Bless Sinners by asking God to help them grow in their Catholic Faith outweighs the Probability of causing some temporary confusion, say I.

The confusion is temporary once a serious person takes the time to understand the details regarding the nature of the Blessing - AND the details about the nature of any Blessing are not self-evident - and what I mean by that is that most folks would need to read up on it to understand the full nature of this notion of "Blessing".

So, yeah, weighed in the balance, this is a good decision, but, yeah, it's going to cause lots of Catholic bashing because it will cause confusion.

This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 9:18 am
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