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Message
Posted on 12/19/23 at 3:48 pm to Loserman
quote:
One false faith to another.
Posted on 12/19/23 at 3:57 pm to Azkiger
quote:I believe that the State should support the Church and shouldn't recognize something as marriage that isn't a marriage.
@ the Christians who wanted marriage left up to the churches.
Let's be honest, you'd really prefer the government stay in the business of marriage, just not grant it to those damn sodomites. You didn't want to share, so you took your ball home only to realize your parents invited those pesky sodomites over to sleep and you still have to share your ball with them... The irony...
Posted on 12/19/23 at 4:21 pm to FooManChoo
SPECTATOR
WRITTEN BY
Tim Stanley
Tim Stanley is a leader writer at the Daily Telegraph and a contributing editor at the Catholic Herald. Tim Stanley’s Whatever Happened to Tradition? History, Belonging and the Future of the West is out now.
quote:
The Pope is old and unwell. In whatever time he has left, he surveys his years as pontiff and counts only failure. What does he leave behind? Collapsing attendance, theological confusion, a few sentimental encyclicals and a positive meeting with Whoopi Goldberg. Francis called a synod and it gave him nothing. So, in a last throw of the dice, he declares that priests can bless gay relationships – sorta, kinda, maybe not.
It’s all a muddle. The priest is not blessing the relationship but the partners; it must have no ritual; weddings are ruled out, for the teaching on marriage is unchanged. To effect this fudge, Francis has broken with the spirit of the Second Vatican Council by going over the heads of the bishops to empower the priests to offer the blessing. Yet he has also given these clerics no text to recite, so how are they supposed to know what to say?
If only Francis had focused all his energy on the poor and marginalised, his papacy might be remembered with fondness
Some (the Germans) will just conduct mock weddings. Others will be asked by parishioners to bless their arrangement, the priest will refuse, complaints will be raised – and the Church will be forced to clarify further, nudging Rome in an irresistible direction. Open a crack in the door marked ‘reform’ and it never stays a crack. It widens and widens till a storm rages through, wrecking the temple within.
Conservatives insist the Pope is being misinterpreted by the secular media – yet again! But the Vatican itself is blowing the trumpet for this change, condensing what should’ve taken theologians years to debate into a press release that essentially says ‘the Pope makes the rules’.
Francis believes he can tinker with teachings. He did it on the death penalty, taking the nuanced position that it is possible but undesirable, and simply declaring that in light of his personal reading of the scripture, it is always wrong – suggesting that the Church was mistaken on this matter, and who knows what else?
Traditionalists will point out that this is nothing unique to Francis but the direction of travel for the Church since the 1960s, when the hierarchy first took a knife to Catholicism’s beautiful liturgy and universal language (Latin). Why get over-excited about gay blessings when we’ve had communion in the hand, ecumenism, ‘religious liberty’, watering down of moral teaching – for instance on Hell – and tolerance of the kind of trendy narcissism from which Francis sprang?
The answer is that I’m watching this unfold from England, where the Anglican Church allowed itself to be torn apart and then redefined by ceaseless debate about sexuality and gender. This has blunted its Gospel message and emptied the pews. For those of us who converted from Canterbury to Rome precisely because we sought a rock of stability in a sea of revolution, it smacks of deja-vu.
Anglicans might add that this is the problem with having a pope, that investing power in one man leaves you vulnerable to the vicissitudes of personality. In the 19th century, Rome’s authority was enhanced in the expectation that it would be a guardian of tradition – but the sword has been turned against us. We were blessed in being led by John Paul II and Benedict XVI, one charismatic and the other brilliant, both men who defied the spirit of the times and thus gave the Church an attractive definition. Now we are led by a man of far lesser ability who chases the zeitgeist, in the process alienating the dwindling band of people who have stuck with the Church through scandals and pandemics because they thought it stood unreservedly for the Truth.
What are the options? Despair? Impossible. We don’t get to choose the time we live in or our battles; like Job we cannot begin to comprehend the purpose behind it all. To accept the logic of faith, one must have faith – even as the faith of others appears to weaken and bend. As for the source of strength to endure the coming chaos, I felt a touch of divine providence the day of Francis’ announcement. I happened to be meditating upon 2 Corinthians, chapter 12, in which St Paul says that to keep him from feeling smug, the Lord placed a thorn in his flesh. Paul begged for it to be removed. The Lord replied: ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’
God’s love is certain, and there is a miraculous nobility and strength in weakness: what the false world of man takes for defeat is the source of victory. The radical paradox of Christianity is that at the same time as we are invited to surrender our ego, we do so in the certainty that to God we are of vital importance – that the end goal is a self-giving love that transcends all our worries.
If only Francis had focused all his energy on the poor and marginalised, his papacy might be remembered with fondness. Instead, by constantly banging on about politics and vandalising tradition, he distracts from the harder, greater work of getting on with being a Christian – of rolling up your sleeves and loving. His profession of open-mindedness has spelt indulgent self-examination. His pursuit of relevance makes the Church sound embarrassingly outdated. The secular world is marrying gay people left, right and centre; we are about to have a pointless row about whether they might be blessed – with the confusing, patronising caveat that this little wave of the hand is not an endorsement.
Ah well, this is my generation’s cross: to be led by old donkeys determined to wreck their inheritance, to bequeath us a ruin and say, with devilish pride, ‘I built this’.
WRITTEN BY
Tim Stanley
Tim Stanley is a leader writer at the Daily Telegraph and a contributing editor at the Catholic Herald. Tim Stanley’s Whatever Happened to Tradition? History, Belonging and the Future of the West is out now.
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 4:23 pm
Posted on 12/19/23 at 4:34 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
Francis called a synod and it gave him nothing.
that's so disingenuous. The Synod on Synodality is literally a meeting about meetings...not an ecumenical council. Nothing binding was ever going to come out of that meeting by definition.
quote:
The priest is not blessing the relationship but the partners; it must have no ritual; weddings are ruled out, for the teaching on marriage is unchanged.
seems pretty fricken clear to me. Its just a normal blessing that one would get if in the communion line with arms crossed or in the pue before dismissal. It's not a liturgical blessing.
quote:
empower the priests to offer the blessing. Yet he has also given these clerics no text to recite, so how are they supposed to know what to say
they already know what to say because they do it during every mass. "May God bless you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit".
quote:
Some (the Germans) will just conduct mock weddings.
this is a serious problem and one which I wish Pope Francis would deal with swiftly and sternly.
quote:
press release that essentially says ‘the Pope makes the rules’.
All the Pope did was clarify existing rules about non-liturgical blessings as they apply to gay couples.
quote:
Conservatives insist the Pope is being misinterpreted by the secular media
in this instance, every media headline was almost blatantly a mischaracterization.
Posted on 12/19/23 at 4:42 pm to gaetti15
Also to point out that dude is a super traditionalist Catholic...
which is fine. I appreciate folks like that, but they are the loud, small squeaky wheel in the grand scheme of Catholicism. They are very hypercritical of Pope Francis so anything with the slightest potential to cause confusion sends them to message boards, etc. And this is coming from someone who agrees with some of their issues with Pope Francis and Vatican 2
The Latin Mass is reverent, beautiful and historical...quiet a thing to experience...even though it's not my cup of tea. I much prefer a reverent Novus Ordo.
I get Traditionalists, appreciate there viewpoints and support a few of their fights...but people think they are a large proportion of the Church that are getting railroaded by Traditon custodalis that the Pope issued.
which is fine. I appreciate folks like that, but they are the loud, small squeaky wheel in the grand scheme of Catholicism. They are very hypercritical of Pope Francis so anything with the slightest potential to cause confusion sends them to message boards, etc. And this is coming from someone who agrees with some of their issues with Pope Francis and Vatican 2
The Latin Mass is reverent, beautiful and historical...quiet a thing to experience...even though it's not my cup of tea. I much prefer a reverent Novus Ordo.
I get Traditionalists, appreciate there viewpoints and support a few of their fights...but people think they are a large proportion of the Church that are getting railroaded by Traditon custodalis that the Pope issued.
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 12/19/23 at 4:53 pm to gaetti15
quote:
this is a serious problem and one which I wish Pope Francis would deal with swiftly and sternly.
You are delusional. He routinely rewards sexually deviant priest while black listing orthodox ones.
Prove me wrong
Posted on 12/19/23 at 4:55 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
You are delusional.
delusional for praying that the Pope would deal with the heretical Germans?
did you read that wrong?
quote:
He routinely rewards sexually deviant priest while black listing orthodox ones.
one of the issues I have with him
Posted on 12/19/23 at 5:53 pm to gaetti15
quote:
delusional for praying that the Pope would deal with the heretical Germans? did you read that wrong?
He loves the heretical Germans.
The pope has done nothing but encourage them.
Posted on 12/19/23 at 5:56 pm to Fun Bunch
This pope is to the papacy what Joe Biden is to the presidency.
At times, Joe tires to play up to his blue collar working man Democrats, but he realizes that his Left wing is filled with lunatics and degenerates, and he has to please them too.
So he’ll say things like he did with Israel and pretend they have his full support, but when the radical Left loses its mind, he tires to backtrack and throw them a bone. He ends up being feckless and not respected by either side.
This pope obviously knows what his Church’s position is on topics like homosexuality, but he wants to walk the fence and makes nuanced statements to try and appease everyone.
In the end, he will end up a failure like Joe who no one respects.
At times, Joe tires to play up to his blue collar working man Democrats, but he realizes that his Left wing is filled with lunatics and degenerates, and he has to please them too.
So he’ll say things like he did with Israel and pretend they have his full support, but when the radical Left loses its mind, he tires to backtrack and throw them a bone. He ends up being feckless and not respected by either side.
This pope obviously knows what his Church’s position is on topics like homosexuality, but he wants to walk the fence and makes nuanced statements to try and appease everyone.
In the end, he will end up a failure like Joe who no one respects.
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 5:57 pm
Posted on 12/19/23 at 6:40 pm to Revelator
quote:
This pope obviously knows what his Church’s position is on topics like homosexuality, but he wants to walk the fence and makes nuanced statements to try and appease everyone.
you just named every modern Jesuit
Posted on 12/19/23 at 6:48 pm to Fun Bunch
The really big question most of us Catholics have is simply “who’s on deck?”
This jerk is not well these days. And it’s like a head coaching search. Best available in the Vatican?
This jerk is not well these days. And it’s like a head coaching search. Best available in the Vatican?
Posted on 12/19/23 at 7:06 pm to gaetti15
quote:I didn’t know Catholics were divided
you just named every modern Jesuit
I appreciate your commentary on the Spectator article btw
Posted on 12/19/23 at 7:16 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
I didn’t know Catholics were divided
Not divided but different disciplines or orders of clergy.
Big four are Jesuits, Dominicans ,Franciscans and Benedictines.
to paint a broad picture.
The Franciscans are big on poverty, simplicity and working with the poor.
The Dominicans are big on preaching, teaching and theological discussion.
The Jesuits are big on education and social justice.
The Benedictines (who, unlike the other three you mentioned, are a contemplative order) have relatively little contact with the outside world and are focused on a rigorous schedule of prayer, the Divine Office, and practical hands-on work within their monastic community.
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 7:17 pm
Posted on 12/19/23 at 7:55 pm to MDB
quote:
he really big question most of us Catholics have is simply “who’s on deck?
The word on the street is next guy up will be worse than Bergolio
Posted on 12/19/23 at 8:02 pm to gaetti15
quote:
seems pretty fricken clear to me. Its just a normal blessing that one would get if in the communion line with arms crossed or in the pue before dismissal. It's not a liturgical blessing.
quote:
seems pretty fricken clear to me. Its just a normal blessing that one would get if in the communion line with arms crossed or in the pue before dismissal. It's not a liturgical blessing.
Which is also what any Catholic in a state of mortal sin is supposed to do...
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:13 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Which is also what any Catholic in a state of mortal sin is supposed to do...
yep. I'm in an irregular relationship until my wifes first marriage gets annulled. been doing it for about two years now. we both go up one after another to receive a blessing
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:17 pm to gaetti15
quote:
yep. I'm in an irregular relationship until my wifes first marriage gets annulled. been doing it for about two years now. we both go up one after another to receive a blessing
Do the Catholics still sell those,” get out of jail free” cards?
Oops, I meant indulgences?
I guess the capability to have a marriage annulled is another one of those oral traditions that has been passed down
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 9:20 pm
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:27 pm to Revelator
quote:
guess the capability to have a marriage annulled is another one of those oral traditions that has been passed down
speaking as a protestant? you have no room to talk. If an annulment is finalized that means the conditions of a marriage didnt exist at the time of the vows. From my understanding, some protestants are very similar to the Church's teaching while others are even more liberal.
ETA: For instance as a really absurd situation that would be easily annulled ...a shotgun wedding...i.e. a coerced wedding
quote:
Do the Catholics still sell those,” get out of jail free” cards?
Oops, I meant indulgences?
That was resolved during the Counter-Reformation.
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 9:29 pm
Posted on 12/19/23 at 9:29 pm to gaetti15
quote:
If an annulment is finalized that means the conditions of a marriage didnt exist at the time of the vows.
Which doesn’t dispute my assertion that this is another made up non biblical theology that Catholics will say was passed down by oral tradition. If Catholics can annul a marriage, can they also annul an abortion?
This post was edited on 12/19/23 at 9:31 pm
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