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Philosophical question - if a foreign nation is subsidizing a product that they export
Posted on 4/5/25 at 9:16 pm
Posted on 4/5/25 at 9:16 pm
Why complain about it? Instead shouldn't we be trying to buy the shite out of it?
Example - China heavily subsidizes solar panels. Great. We need more energy on the grid. Why not buy the shite out of them and let China subsidize a portion of our grid expansion?
We can find other avenues to protect American manufacturers of solar panels.
Example - China heavily subsidizes solar panels. Great. We need more energy on the grid. Why not buy the shite out of them and let China subsidize a portion of our grid expansion?
We can find other avenues to protect American manufacturers of solar panels.
18
Posted on 4/5/25 at 9:29 pm to Powerman
quote:
Example - China heavily subsidizes solar panels. Great. We need more energy on the grid. Why not buy the shite out of them and let China subsidize a portion of our grid expansion?
We can find other avenues to protect American manufacturers of solar panels.
Wow. Solar panels can't come near the efficiency of natural gas, coal or nuclear. Why assist Chyna in subsidizing solar panels at the cost of American Jobs?
A pipefitter or welder earn more and contribute more than child or slave labor in Chyna.
Posted on 4/5/25 at 10:24 pm to Powerman
quote:
We can find other avenues to protect American manufacturers of solar panels.
We do protect American manufacturers, but only the biggest with the deepest pockets and most well-connected lobbyists. Some would say those are the most efficient so of course those are the ones that should survive. Others would argue that this “Walmarting” system pushes out smaller competitors and creates monopolies. Once they’ve got that monopoly, those American companies can then decide that American workers are just too expensive and more trouble than they’re worth.
Not all manufacturing is of equal importance and there are many low value/low significance items it does make sense to produce in countries with lower labor costs. But the last 40 years has shown that companies will enjoy that greater profit margin and want to continually expand the list of products they want to offshore production of.
Posted on 4/5/25 at 11:14 pm to Powerman
quote:
We can find other avenues to protect American manufacturers
You're going to have to explain how American manufacturers could compete with countries who are dumping cheap goods on the market at prices below where American companies could produce and sell them.
The absolute lowest price of a good shouldn't be the goal when it comes to economic independence and national security. If we're financing our government and economy with debt and consistently running trade deficits, we need to start exporting more and importing less, thereby growing jobs and real economic output, instead of government spending fueling GDP (and again, driving up our national debt).
This post was edited on 4/5/25 at 11:15 pm
Posted on 4/5/25 at 11:31 pm to Powerman
We should eliminate bar exam and allow anyone to act as a lawyer. Then I can hire some Indian or Chinese lawyer for 50 cents an hour next time I need one
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:11 am to scottydoesntknow
quote:
We should eliminate bar exam and allow anyone to act as a lawyer. Then I can hire some Indian or Chinese lawyer for 50 cents an hour next time I need one
The good news is that AI will replace many lawyers. It will do much of the research and legal analysis in the future.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:19 am to Speckhunter2012
quote:
Wow. Solar panels can't come near the efficiency of natural gas, coal or nuclear
Please cite your source.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:21 am to TenWheelsForJesus
quote:
The good news is that AI will replace many lawyers. It will do much of the research and legal analysis in the future.
This will apply to all white collar jobs. Including whatever the hell you do that you think will be immune to it. You might want to reconsider if this is actually good news.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:23 am to Powerman
quote:
Why complain about it? Instead shouldn't we be trying to buy the shite out of it?
Example - China heavily subsidizes solar panels. Great. We need more energy on the grid. Why not buy the shite out of them and let China subsidize a portion of our grid expansion?
Well, sure. As long arse they're willing to sell us the stuff we MUST have, then this probably works.
HOWEVER, if a country does this to the point that we MUST buy from them because none of our own capability survives, they have another word you need to use for this. It's called DEPENDENCE.
Ya know. like if all the chips we need for national defense comes from said nation. Or, key elements required for our high end military sensors. And on and on.
What happens if that cordial buyer seller relationship goes bad?
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:23 am to Powerman
quote:
Example - China heavily subsidizes solar panels. Great. We need more energy on the grid. Why not buy the shite out of them and let China subsidize a portion of our grid expansion?
You have an interesting premise... might want to pick a different product or service if you want to make a point.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:43 am to SallysHuman
Why? Energy is critical infrastructure. Building solar farms creates jobs and helps other American companies like Tesla (Solar farms are usually accompanied by BESS systems and Tesla makes those)
If creating jobs to build shite is good for the economy why would building solar farms be good for the economy? And if China can fund a portion of this process with their own deficit spending I don't see the issue.
In fact I believe the Biden administration lifted tariffs to help expedite the build out of this. It's probably one of the few things they did right. Hopefully we get a more targeted approach to tariffs soon and this is done once again.
If creating jobs to build shite is good for the economy why would building solar farms be good for the economy? And if China can fund a portion of this process with their own deficit spending I don't see the issue.
In fact I believe the Biden administration lifted tariffs to help expedite the build out of this. It's probably one of the few things they did right. Hopefully we get a more targeted approach to tariffs soon and this is done once again.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:47 am to Powerman
quote:
Why? Energy is critical infrastructure.
Because...
quote:
Energy is critical infrastructure.
Energy being a critical need means energy should be constant and reliable.
Solar farms are horrendous to the environment from the point of being mined for minerals all the way to disposing parts. They are not economical. They are not constant. They are not earth friendly.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 12:59 am to Powerman
quote:
Why complain about it? Instead shouldn't we be trying to buy the shite out of it?
We got 2 things going on
1. Why do we want to take advantage of labor in this way? The countries are doing something necessarily more efficiently. They are just paying poverty wages.
2. We have unions that are trying to get paid above the skil level of the job which is forcing manufacturers out of the country.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 1:13 am to SallysHuman
quote:
Energy being a critical need means energy should be constant and reliable.
That's why they're accompanied by BESS systems. I'm not talking about rooftops here. I'm talking utiliscale.
quote:
Solar farms are horrendous to the environment
Let me stop you there homie. This isn't a valid argument. All forms of energy have negative environmental impacts. It's a trade off.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 1:15 am to Colonel Flagg
quote:
1. Why do we want to take advantage of labor in this way?
Clarify what labor you think were taking advantage of?
It might also be worth making the pragmatic decision that American made solar manufacturing isn't an industry worth protecting.
Things to think about for the greater good. Let them sell their IP and they can frick off with the commercial manufacturing if they aren't competitive.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 1:20 am to Powerman
My homie... I did a quick google on the downsides to your BESS utility scale proposition.
This isn't risk or issue free... which makes my arguments valid.
I'll put another argument out there... it is an eyesore.
Another... it ruins the ground/ecosystem.
Another... it isn't 'there' yet with efficiency.
Another... where do solar panels go to die?
I could do this for hours. And cheap junk from China ain't the answer.
quote:
While utility-scale solar panel systems with Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS) offer significant benefits for grid stability and renewable energy integration, they also present downsides, including high upfront costs, safety concerns, and environmental impacts related to battery manufacturing and disposal.
This isn't risk or issue free... which makes my arguments valid.
I'll put another argument out there... it is an eyesore.
Another... it ruins the ground/ecosystem.
Another... it isn't 'there' yet with efficiency.
Another... where do solar panels go to die?
I could do this for hours. And cheap junk from China ain't the answer.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 1:35 am to SallysHuman
quote:
This isn't risk or issue free... which makes my arguments valid.
No form of energy is issue or risk free. Which is precisely what makes your argument a wash.
Do you think natural gas comes with zero environmental risks? Coal?
The form of energy with the least downside risk is nuclear and that still has risks.
It's worthwhile to think about the things you're thinking about so I'm not going to shite on it. But it's all on a relative basis.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 2:14 am to Powerman
quote:From a strictly pragmatic view, yeah. Assuming you have no ethical view, or at least are neutral on the subject of buying American. Their government is essentially subsidizing your purchase.
Why complain about it? Instead shouldn't we be trying to buy the shite out of it?
It's especially advantageous with products from low paying industries no one is clamoring to bring back anyway. I don't understand the purpose of imposing tariffs on countries that are too poor to buy almost anything we want to produce, yet sell us a bunch of shite we want for cheap. Seems like we were already winning in that setup. Now we're just paying more and they still don't have enough money to buy our shite. Of course we have a trade deficit with Indonesia. None of them can afford to buy anything expensive enough to pay an American wage. Sucks to have so much more money than everyone else, I guess.
I'm much more open to the idea of targeted tariffs on industries deemed critical to national security or survival though. COVID showed how fragile the current supply chain is and it could be many times worse in the event of war.
Of course, the devil is in the details with that one, as far as what gets deemed critical.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 2:19 am to northshorebamaman
quote:
Of course, the devil is in the details
Ain’t none of these people concerned about the actual details. But the do substitute their own to backfill their narratives.
Posted on 4/6/25 at 2:26 am to northshorebamaman
quote:
From a strictly pragmatic view, yeah. Assuming you have no ethical view, or at least are neutral on the subject of buying American. Their government is essentially subsidizing your purchase.
Yeah. I think the ethical point might be sort of covered under the idea that you have to import some things
In essence it's one of the reasons I like that Trump isn't a strict idealist and it could be a good model for governance going forward. I'm saying this as someone that used to fashion myself as an idealist many years ago.
quote:
It's especially advantageous with products from low paying industries no one is clamoring to bring back anyway. I don't understand the purpose of imposing tariffs on countries that are too poor to buy almost anything we want to produce, yet sell us a bunch of shite we want for cheap. Seems like we were already winning in that setup. Now we're just paying more and they still don't have enough money to buy our shite. Of course we have a trade deficit with Indonesia. None of them can afford to buy anything expensive enough to pay an American wage. Sucks to have so much more money than everyone else, I guess.
Yeah...this has been one of the consistent counter arguments here against the blanket global trade war. I expect/hope that things will get more refined when the dust settles in the coming weeks/months. Hopefully not years.
quote:
I'm much more open to the idea of targeted tariffs on industries deemed critical to national security or survival though. COVID showed how fragile the current supply chain is and it could be many times worse in the event of war.
Of course. COVID for all of its negatives did open our eyes to some vulnerabilities. And we have taken at least some action at the federal level to remedy this with things like the CHIPS and science act. We're very fortunate that our agricultural production has always been enough to sustain us even though we do import some food products.
quote:
Of course, the devil is in the details with that one, as far as what gets deemed critical.
Definitely. And sometimes it takes an unexpected crisis to put the highlight on what is actually critical as the COVID example showed.
Anyway this thread was a bit of a half baked shower thought type of idea but I think it's worthy of discussion. Appreciate your contributions to this discussion.
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