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MTFTG in Women's Sports (a new analogy)
Posted on 3/3/25 at 10:51 am
Posted on 3/3/25 at 10:51 am
It will surprise some (maybe "many") that I oppose male-to-female transgender folks from participating in women's sports.
At its core, the question comes down to "What is the purpose of sport?" In a way, the issue is not dissimilar from "participation trophies," IMO.
If you believe that sport exists simply to allow everyone to take part, you probably support both participation trophies and MTFTG participation in women's sports.
If you believe that sport exists to actually determine "Who is the best" at something, you probably do not support either of them.
The pragmatic problem is that, in ANY sport, there will always be people who simply have physical traits which will almost guarantee success against those without those traits. A team of 6'6" boys will almost always beat a team of 5'5" boys at basketball. A team of girls under 120-pounds will almost always beat a team of girls over 200 pounds at distance running.
And a physical body that developed with the presence of testosterone (among other things) will almost always have greater speed, strength and endurance than a body that developed without it.
Boxing has addressed this question by creating ... what, twenty? ... weight classes. A boxer at 145-pounds CANNOT compete against a boxer at 235-pounds. So, boxers at 145 compete against one another, and boxers at 235 compete against one another.
Most sports, however, do not lend themselves to twenty classes. So, we choose two classes that seem to be both reasonable and fair ... men and women.
Just my two-cents.
At its core, the question comes down to "What is the purpose of sport?" In a way, the issue is not dissimilar from "participation trophies," IMO.
If you believe that sport exists simply to allow everyone to take part, you probably support both participation trophies and MTFTG participation in women's sports.
If you believe that sport exists to actually determine "Who is the best" at something, you probably do not support either of them.
The pragmatic problem is that, in ANY sport, there will always be people who simply have physical traits which will almost guarantee success against those without those traits. A team of 6'6" boys will almost always beat a team of 5'5" boys at basketball. A team of girls under 120-pounds will almost always beat a team of girls over 200 pounds at distance running.
And a physical body that developed with the presence of testosterone (among other things) will almost always have greater speed, strength and endurance than a body that developed without it.
Boxing has addressed this question by creating ... what, twenty? ... weight classes. A boxer at 145-pounds CANNOT compete against a boxer at 235-pounds. So, boxers at 145 compete against one another, and boxers at 235 compete against one another.
Most sports, however, do not lend themselves to twenty classes. So, we choose two classes that seem to be both reasonable and fair ... men and women.
Just my two-cents.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 10:55 am to AggieHank86
This makes me think you have a few fucmtional brain cells.
Congrats on a sliver of common semse- u wish your other views had common sense attached to it
Congrats on a sliver of common semse- u wish your other views had common sense attached to it
Posted on 3/3/25 at 10:56 am to AggieHank86
What really exposes the validity of the trans athlete arguments is that there is ZERO female to male athletes making noise.
That alone screams DIFFERENCE between men and women.
That alone screams DIFFERENCE between men and women.
This post was edited on 3/3/25 at 10:58 am
Posted on 3/3/25 at 10:57 am to AggieHank86
I thought you were dead.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:00 am to AggieHank86
I had to check my calendar to see if it was April 1st.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:04 am to AggieHank86
quote:
MTFTG
What does this mean? Male To Female Trans Gender???
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:06 am to prplngldtigr
I may be wrong, but I've not seen the boxing analogy in this discussion.
The Williams sisters seem to take offense at being described as among the best Women's Tennis players of all time. They want to be compared to the Men, for some reason, when they would be obliterated by second- or third-tier men.
I seriously doubt that Sugar Ray Leonard would take offense at being described as one of the best Welterweight boxers of all time. As good as he was, Ali (a heavyweight) would have beaten him to a pulp, by virtue of all his physical advantages. I think that Leonard understands that.
The Williams sisters seem to take offense at being described as among the best Women's Tennis players of all time. They want to be compared to the Men, for some reason, when they would be obliterated by second- or third-tier men.
I seriously doubt that Sugar Ray Leonard would take offense at being described as one of the best Welterweight boxers of all time. As good as he was, Ali (a heavyweight) would have beaten him to a pulp, by virtue of all his physical advantages. I think that Leonard understands that.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:06 am to AggieHank86
Good points. And aside from size, strength and agility there is another factor in brain function. I call it speed/distance recognition. A male baseball player can compute the flight of a fastball coming at his head at 90 mph. A female cannot. It doesn't matter how many years she plays. Her brain can't compute it and she's gonna get hit in the head. It might also be why female pilots in the air force can't qualify for fighters and end up assigned to bombers.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:12 am to AggieHank86
quote:
The Williams sisters seem to take offense at being described as among the best Women's Tennis players of all time. They want to be compared to the Men
quote:
"Andy Murray would beat me 6:0 6:0 in 5 to 6 minutes" - Serena Williams
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:15 am to jimmy the leg
Fair enough. I guess it was their "supporters," rather than the actual sisters, that I remember raising a ruckus about McEnroe's comments..
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:18 am to AggieHank86
Boxers strictly adhere to weight classes.
Yes some move up and down, but within reason.
Weight classes matter immensely.
But with women vs men, regardless of sport - weight class is irrelevant.
Clarissa Shields wouldn’t last the 1st round with a male boxer 30lbs lighter.
Yes some move up and down, but within reason.
Weight classes matter immensely.
But with women vs men, regardless of sport - weight class is irrelevant.
Clarissa Shields wouldn’t last the 1st round with a male boxer 30lbs lighter.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:21 am to prplngldtigr
quote:WADR, you are missing the point.
Clarissa Shields wouldn’t last the 1st round with a male boxer 30lbs lighter.
I am not suggesting putting all 145-pound boxers (regardless of sex) into the same class. I am simply saying that different classes based upon physical attributes/characteristics are entirely reasonable, and I am using the weight classes in boxing as an example.
And having two classes, based upon sex, is an entirely-reasonable approach for most sports, because physical sex is a reasonable proxy for "overall physical characteristics."
This post was edited on 3/3/25 at 11:24 am
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:26 am to AggieHank86
No doubt.
And to your point- there is female boxing. For those reasons and these women do not object at all.
You get the occasional idiot like Shields that says stupid sht about competing with men, but it’s a rarity.
And to your point- there is female boxing. For those reasons and these women do not object at all.
You get the occasional idiot like Shields that says stupid sht about competing with men, but it’s a rarity.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:28 am to prplngldtigr
quote:That is actually a very good addition to the analogy.
there is female boxing. For those reasons and these women do not object at all.
"Female boxers clearly do not object to subdivisions/classes based upon physical characteristics, because you do not see female Heavyweights demanding to fight female Flyweights."
This post was edited on 3/3/25 at 11:30 am
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:40 am to AggieHank86
The whole point of separating was so women can compete fairly.
I am actually okay with making everything coed, just know very very very very few women would then make it in professional sports.
Could venus and serena still play pro tennis? Sure, but they would never win big and none of us would know their names.
I am actually okay with making everything coed, just know very very very very few women would then make it in professional sports.
Could venus and serena still play pro tennis? Sure, but they would never win big and none of us would know their names.
This post was edited on 3/3/25 at 11:41 am
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:43 am to AggieHank86
I remember during the Olympics over on the MSB some people were defending the Algerian boxer. They were all wrong.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:43 am to Zach
WTF are you talking about? There's plenty of female fighter pilots.
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:48 am to AggieHank86
That's a bunch of commie gobbledygook. Why elaborate on this topic with weight classes and other crap when it's much simpler to just say that men are men and women are women?
Posted on 3/3/25 at 11:52 am to AggieHank86
quote:
The Williams sisters seem to take offense at being described as among the best Women's Tennis players of all time. They want to be compared to the Men, for some reason, when they would be obliterated by second- or third-tier men.
No they don't. Serena has talked about this many times.
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