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Started By
Message
Mohammad Ali a draft dodger?
Posted on 9/17/19 at 2:49 am
Posted on 9/17/19 at 2:49 am
thoughts?
23
Posted on 9/17/19 at 2:52 am to TheHarper
Yes, it’s true.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 3:26 am to TheHarper
I hear we also landed on the moon.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 3:27 am to TheHarper
What are we looking for here? That's why he changed his name. One of the dumbest/funniest stories was my Dad pissing next to him at the final 4. Said dude was a vegetable back in 2000, sad stuff.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 3:52 am to TheHarper
He was a conscientious objector.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 4:24 am to TheHarper
quote:Ali immersed himself in Islam. That part was no sham or stunt. He was neither educated nor particularly bright, but he was religious.
thoughts?
Motivation of some of the characters he became associated with were not so pure. They convinced him, his profession and centuries of Islamic murderous jihad notwithstanding, that Islam was a religion of peace, and that he should not take part in warfare while being true to his faith.
Nonetheless, Ali was certainly aware of the significant social side to his stance.
Vietnam was an ugly episode.
Even more so for black Americans in the early going though.
At the time, blacks made up 11.0% of the young male population nationwide, and similarly made up about 11.0% of our Vietnam force. But once they were drafted, they were skewed heavily into combat units. As a result, black casualties soared to over 20% of total dead/wounded through 1966 -- double the individual white rate.
Black leaders protested, justifiably.
Ali played a significant part in elevating their voice. Concomitant to the government's prosecution of Ali for draft evasion, LBJ ordered black combat participation be more correctly apportioned. By 1969 the black casualty rate was cut to 11.5% and remained roughly proportionate to participation for the rest of the war.
Without Ali, would LBJ have taken that action? Who knows. But tossing Ali in a pot with coward draft dodgers is not fair at all IMO.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 4:40 am to TheHarper
quote:
thoughts?
Not a draft dodger - he took no nefarious actions to avoid the draft - he just said = 'I aint going" = he was straightforward and up front with his objection to the war on the basis of not wanting to kill.
Unfair to compare him to asshats who fled the country, got phone medical diagnoses, etc.
I think he was an honest, simple man. True 'draft dodgers' - not so much.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 4:50 am to stelly1025
quote:Can this be used at tax time?
He was a conscientious objector.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 4:52 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
But once they were drafted, they were skewed heavily into combat units. As a result, black casualties soared to over 20% of total dead/wounded through 1966 -- double the individual white rate.
True but mostly due to skill set.
I am willing to wager poor whites fared even worse but that does not fir the narrative.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 5:29 am to TheHarper
quote:
Mohammad Ali a draft dodger?
Not according to the SCOTUS......9-0
Posted on 9/17/19 at 5:33 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
he was straightforward and up front with his objection to the war on the basis of not wanting to kill.
Well that's what a lot of people had trouble wrapping their heads around - he espoused he didn't believe in killing but he had no problem beating your arse to a pulp in a boxing ring. His interpretation of what the word "violence" meant just didn't seem to add up.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 5:49 am to cave canem
quote:Oh for goodness sake. Cooks, cleaners, base laborers, vehicle drivers, etc. don't require a damn skill set.
True but mostly due to skill set.
Regardless, black families were faced with double the odds that their sons would either not survive combat, or be maimed as a result. Cut it anyway you'd like. That was the state of affairs when Ali took his stance.
Afterwards it changed.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:26 am to Homesick Tiger
quote:He still was at least willing to pay the price for his stand. Unlike Cheech Marin who jokes he was the 1st Mexican to jump the border OUT of the USA fleeing the draft and Nam. That's how he met Tommy Chong and formed Cheech and Chong.
Well that's what a lot of people had trouble wrapping their heads around - he espoused he didn't believe in killing but he had no problem beating your arse to a pulp in a boxing ring. His interpretation of what the word "violence" meant just didn't seem to add up.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:43 am to tigerpawl
quote:
Can this be used at tax time?
No, but the Amish don't pay social security and Medicare.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:45 am to TheHarper
quote:
thoughts?
Now, let's wait just a second. I don't agree with his stance. But, he didn't run to Canada. He didn't fish for deferments. He didn't play games, politically. He declined induction and asked they take him to jail. More significantly, he declined induction in 1966, well before it was the fashionable thing to do.
Had he accepted induction, he would have been a prizefighter for the Army, giving exhibition matches with, essentially, sparring partners, 3 rounds at a time at military bases all over the world.
Again, I do not agree with his stance, but I respect it.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:47 am to stelly1025
quote:This. And he served prison time for his beliefs as suffered monetary loss and had professional setbacks due to his stand. He paid for his beliefs. Unlike many others.
He was a conscientious objector.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:48 am to Homesick Tiger
quote:
a lot of people had trouble wrapping their heads around - he espoused he didn't believe in killing but he had no problem beating your arse to a pulp in a boxing ring.
Well that's just silly beyond sane comprehension.
Boxing - especially at that time - was a sport with rules and willing participation.
any comparison between boxing and war is obtusely semantic - and very thinly so at that.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:51 am to TheHarper
I was living in Pleasure Ridge Park, just off the Waterson Expressway, in Louisville when all this went down and I remember his declaration that he was changing his name from Cassius Clay to Mohammed Ali ... and why.
Yes, he was a draft dodger but he was always a very smart savvy PR and standup guy. He wasn't your typical coward draft dodger.
He was the Barrack Obama of his day really. Drew the same type of praise from the same type of people but, imho, he was never the raging lying hypocrite that Obama is. He wasn't a politician .... he was a Pied Piper.
I met him one time, in Memphis, and as big as I am at 6'3" with big hands and feet .... when I shook his hand his hand engulfed mine and his smile and charm immediately puts you at ease.
I have long considered him a one of a kind human being.
Yes, he was a draft dodger but he was always a very smart savvy PR and standup guy. He wasn't your typical coward draft dodger.
He was the Barrack Obama of his day really. Drew the same type of praise from the same type of people but, imho, he was never the raging lying hypocrite that Obama is. He wasn't a politician .... he was a Pied Piper.
I met him one time, in Memphis, and as big as I am at 6'3" with big hands and feet .... when I shook his hand his hand engulfed mine and his smile and charm immediately puts you at ease.
I have long considered him a one of a kind human being.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:52 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Anyone who could look at the life of Ali and conclude he was anything OTHER than fully and truly courageous, is not someone worth listening to. . .
But tossing Ali in a pot with coward draft dodgers is not fair at all IMO.
Ali's story is America, in so many ways. Warts and all.
Posted on 9/17/19 at 6:54 am to Ace Midnight
This^
He was not a 'dodger'. He accepted the consequences.
MLK said that that if you engage in civil disobedience you must be willing to accept the consequences and go to jail.
That's quite a different mindset than antifa who engage in violence, hide their faces, and run from the police.
He was not a 'dodger'. He accepted the consequences.
MLK said that that if you engage in civil disobedience you must be willing to accept the consequences and go to jail.
That's quite a different mindset than antifa who engage in violence, hide their faces, and run from the police.
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