re: Memo to all Christians who are struggling with the decision to vote for Trump

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Ok...

the REALITY of this is, somebody is going to be elected. It doesn't matter if it's only 3 votes, the one who gets 2 or more wins, and is granted the power accordingly.

You are being presented with agendas by both sides, that effect you, your neighbor, your family and loved ones. One side supports the further radicalization of society. The other side wants to reel that back in, and promotes a return to traditional values.

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I don't deny that.

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Good. Vote for the one that respects your position

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I can't in good conscience do that because there is more to this life than what is most pragmatic.

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I'm not voting for Harris or Trump. Abstaining from voting for either of those candidates on purpose is an active choice and decision. I'm not being lazy or disinterested. I'm purposefully not voting for either candidate, and I've been explaining why.

[quote]Refusing to vote does not negate the power granted to the winner.

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First of all, my vote is most certainly not going to decide the winner no matter who wins. Second, if you have a problem with people voting for Harris, go talk to them. I'm not voting for her, so if she wins, it won't be because I gave her a vote. Lastly, God raises up rulers and He casts them down. No matter what I want to do, if God doesn't bless it, it won't help anything.

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If you choose to not prevent someone who's goals are to actively vilify your way of life from taking office, simply speaking, you're a fool. Waiting until they come directly for you is too late.

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I'm a Christian. An outspoken one, at that. This country is lost and Christians are seen more and more as an enemy to freedom and autonomy because the Christian message is antagonistic to secular humanism. Whether Trump wins or not, I'll likely be considered an enemy of the public no matter what in time as God's restraining grace is removed from this nation.

This is not my home.

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You are not at all persuasive, Foo, and I contend that your preaching doesn't belong here on Political Talk.

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I may not be persuasive to you, but I'm saying the same things that have persuaded me in the past. Perhaps I'm persuading others. I don't know. Regardless, I'm saying what I believe to be true.

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You are a member of a very tiny Protestant sect that has less then 10,000 members in the whole USA, and yet you practically dominate this Political Talk board with your preaching.

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Why do you keep repeating this? I've said it time and time again that consensus doesn't determine truth. I've also said that I share the vast majority of my beliefs with tens of millions more Christians throughout the world. While you find it convenient to pick on my denomination, I have much more in common with millions of others who I am glad to share fellowship with. This argument of yours is illogical and petty.

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You are here to preach because you are convinced that your preaching here confirms your belief that you are among the Select predestined for Heaven.

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No, that's not why I "preach" here. I told you before that you need to stop telling me and others what I believe because you seem to get it wrong every time.

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I am not here for Religious reasons, but, you are.

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Christians are supposed to do all things for the glory of God, including how they engage the world in political discourse. I don't understand how you, a professing Christian, think that you can separate Christianity from everything else.

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I am here for Political reasons and I will correct the record when people slander, slur and lie about the Roman Catholic Church. I would defend ANY institution or person from lies, so, I am not even being partial to my own religion.

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You keep lying about me and what I believe even though I've corrected you multiple times, so forgive me if I don't quite believe you when you say you're standing up for the truth. Perhaps you are doing so selectively.

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You are a hard core Calvinist. Calvin believed in governance by establishing a Theocracy in which there was ONE State Religion by law and everybody had to attend church services of that State Religion by law.

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Calvin taught what's known as the two kingdoms view, where the Church and the State worked together for the furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ but each had authority in their own spheres. Calvin was not a pluralist and neither am I. However a Christian can believe that the State can and should recognize the truth of the Christian religion while not forcing others to believe it. Again, a non-secular State doesn't require a Theocracy. I think you are confused about that.

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What you have explained as your reasons for not voting for Trump sounds to me very much like you would like the USA to be a Theocracy and that because Trump doesn't sound like a guy who WOULD establish your kind of Theocracy, you conclude that you can't vote for him.

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You're wrong again. I've explained exactly why I am not voting for Trump and his has nothing to do with him not creating a theocracy that I have not advocated for.

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The US Constitution specifically prohibits any State Religion being established here. John Calvin's Theocracy in Switzerland that got his arse thrown out of the country because it was so oppressive and impractical is not what we want here.

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Again, I'm not calling for a theocracy. You are mistaken in whatever it is you think a theocracy is in terms of a formal government structure. I believe that a constitutional republic can be maintained as a constitutional republic while also recognizing Jesus as King and natural rights coming from God our creator

Also, you seemed to have glossed over the part of my response where I informed you that Calvin was invited back to Geneva because his teachings were desired by the people there.

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Any form of governance that smacks of Theocracy is Anti-American, Foo, and from what you have told us about how you want the USA to be governed, you sound a lot like a proponent of Calvinistic Theocracy.

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You keep speaking of "Calvinistic Theocracy" as if that's a thing. It isn't. You made it up because you don't understand Calvin or what a true theocracy is.

This country was founded with a belief that God exists and He grants rights that should be protected by government. Is that a theocracy to you? Sounds like it is, based on the nonsense you keep spouting about it. I believe in the separation of the Church and the State, where the State governs the civil sphere and the Church governs the spiritual. I also believe the State should recognize the reality that Jesus Christ is King of kings and serve Him in its duty.

What I find ironic in all this is that until the Reformation, the only thing the Christianized world knew was a theocratic monarchy where the Pope legitimized monarchial power with his blessing. For about a thousand years, all there was was a Roman Catholic theocracy in the west.

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Calvinisic Theocracy is UN- American and Anti- Constitutional. I contend that your ideas regarding policy, politics and governance are Un Constitutional and Anti-American.

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You are willfully ignorant on this matter, in spite of me correcting you.

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I know that you don't think of yourself as Unconstitutional or Un American but some of the ideas you espouse seem that way to me.

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They seem that way to you because you are blinded by your hatred of what I believe and can only see me in a negative light. You don't give me the benefit of the doubt and ask questions about what I actually believe, but you do the same thing to me that you accuse Protestants of doing to Catholics by straw manning my beliefs.

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So, God has spoken to you and told you not to vote for Trump because he is immoral?

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God speaks through His Word in the Scriptures. I believe that the governing principles prevent me from voting for anyone who does not seek Christ's kingdom first and to give God the glory in all things. Trump glorifies himself.

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..John 8:7.. You're up, guess it's your turn to throw.

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I'm a sinner, but I'm repentant. That's all I've ever said: I can vote for a Christian sinner who is repentant. Trump is not repentant as far as I can tell.

What does that matter? Big claims deserve big evidence.

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What does that matter? Big claims deserve big evidence.

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There are some professing Christians that do not believe that God is sovereign over all things. I asked the question to help me know how I should answer.

I’m not interested in getting into a debate with you about the existence of God in this thread. He exists whether you want to believe it or not and there is sufficient evidence in all creation to justify such a belief.

You have a moral problem to deal with as an atheist. The problem is that there is no objective morality without an objective moral law giver. You act as though morality is objective even if you might not agree that it is. You cannot justify the inconsistency of your claims and your expectations.

Your atheism precludes any ability that make sense of the world you live in. You cannot account for science, philosophy, or morality, among other things, because you reject the biblical God who makes all these things possible.

Thats all the argument you’re going to get from me in this thread.

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I hate to break it to you but predestination is clearly taught in the Bible. Even the word is used. You need to come to grips with that.

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Well, you might want to step outside your indoctrination and read up on what actually happens when you convince people that they are saved from birth. While Calvin was still living the group that rose up against him were:

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an identifiable group who preferred to be called Spirituels. According to Calvin, these were people who felt that after being liberated through grace, they were exempted from both ecclesiastical and civil law. The group consisted of wealthy, politically powerful, and interrelated families

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Once you know you are chosen to be saved, no laws apply, Right?

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That's quite the accusation. Please explain how I'm a hypocrite.

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You just admitted you are a terrible sinner. Yet in the same post also claim you are above other sinners (Trump, and me it now appears)

I thought I pretty much explained to you Christs feelings on that. Its one of the few (if not only) times that he was furious with men

He specifically called out those that had the "path to salvation" all figured out, ya know the hypocrites. Woe unto you hypocrites, were his words, not mine. More from him: "YOU do not enter the kingdom of Heaven, nor do you allow others (Trump) to enter." He then very clearly defined that the hypocrites punishment will be worse than "the others" that are being refused entry into the Kingdom of Heaven by manmade rules

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"Freedom from religion." You bitches cant even figure out how to avoid it.

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Careful now, he's "highly educate and well read" don't you know?

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Calvinism really is the laziest form of Christianity.

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You're wrong about Calvinism

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Christians who are struggling with the decision to vote for Trump

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This is an impossibility