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re: Liberals: Explain to me why Alfie Evans shouldn't be able to go to Italy
Posted on 4/24/18 at 8:09 pm to SCLibertarian
Posted on 4/24/18 at 8:09 pm to SCLibertarian
I had hoped Brexit was the start of a movement back towards individualism and away from statism. Pretty disheartening that a western nation is acting authoritarian to this degree.
I mean my God, I feel like if you were the parent in this situation, you’d have an endless desire to go V for Vendetta and burn it all down if your kid is suffering and the police guards are standing in your way to get him care.
I mean my God, I feel like if you were the parent in this situation, you’d have an endless desire to go V for Vendetta and burn it all down if your kid is suffering and the police guards are standing in your way to get him care.
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 8:12 pm
2
Posted on 4/24/18 at 8:16 pm to Ross
The hope for liberty lies in Central and Eastern Europe. Those countries have enough recent experience with statism and enough pride remaining in their respective cultures to fight the good fight.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 8:40 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
The British are a neutered and self-loathing people. They have accepted being completely disarmed. They have accepted omnipresent cameras and the constant monitoring of CCTV. They have accepted speech codes so harsh that many of us would run the risk of being charged for things we discuss on here daily. They have accepted having their culture ripped away from them by unfettered immigration. And they don't care, because the percentage of people dependent on government benefits there dwarfs even our country. They have traded individual liberty and dignity for welfare and dependency. I say this as someone who absolutely adores British history and traditional British culture: the United Kingdom is a lost cause.
Very well said, my wife is British and i just finished a 2 week visit with the inlaws and had this same conversation with my BIL.
However on a positive note he agrees and so do many others, this sentiment was a driving force for brexit and they may not be too far gone to recover.
The Brits are a very resiliant people
Posted on 4/24/18 at 8:54 pm to Ross
There is an Italian helicopter one block away from the Hospital. If that was one of my kids, the police would have to incapacitate me. I guess its good for the state that the father is unarmed.
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 8:58 pm
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:20 pm to SCLibertarian
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:26 pm to anc
I'm not speaking to this case in particular because I don't know all of the facts of his diagnosis and what is offered in Rome.
But this isn't a problem with the idea socialized medicine. It's why you don't see this in other countries with socialized medicine and only in the UK.
It's an issue with the UK granting physician's a stronger role in the "best interest" of a child over parental wishes.
In this country we do the opposite. We put parental wishes over the child's. On a daily basis at work, I see infants suffer and languish in pain until their hearts give out because their parents are waiting for a miracle.
Also, if you don't think there are cases in this country where kids are screwed over by private insurance and die as a result you've got your head in the sand. I've seen it first hand. Also, private insurance denies coverage for standard of care treatments and portions of hospital stays all the time. A majority of our inpatient stays have a portion of their stay not covered even though it's not safe to send them home. Our hospital just eats the cost of those days. This happens with medicaid and on private insurance.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:30 pm to Ross
I'd be losing my shite if I was the dad
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:31 pm to anc
It's not about the boy's interests or even the parents interests.
It's about the state reigning supreme and their final word being the sole spectacle of telling the parents to frick off after they kill the little boy or simply let him die.
The government is superior and above everyone else.
It's about the state reigning supreme and their final word being the sole spectacle of telling the parents to frick off after they kill the little boy or simply let him die.
The government is superior and above everyone else.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:33 pm to ctalati32
quote:
's. On a daily basis at work, I see infants suffer and languish in pain until their hearts give out because their parents are waiting for a miracle
What exactly are you advocating for here? Are you saying that the baby's should be euthanized? I absolutely disagree with this.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:34 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
The British are a neutered and self-loathing people. They have accepted being completely disarmed. They have accepted omnipresent cameras and the constant monitoring of CCTV. They have accepted speech codes so harsh that many of us would run the risk of being charged for things we discuss on here daily. They have accepted having their culture ripped away from them by unfettered immigration. And they don't care, because the percentage of people dependent on government benefits there dwarfs even our country. They have traded individual liberty and dignity for welfare and dependency. I say this as someone who absolutely adores British history and traditional British culture: the United Kingdom is a lost cause.
You could just simply say they're cucks and leave it at that.
That's all they are right now.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:39 pm to anc
This whole ordeal doesn't surprise me, since it has been apparent to me for at least a decade that the UK government hates its own people. Every policy they enact proves it.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:40 pm to Sentrius
quote:
They have accepted having their culture ripped away from them by unfettered immigration. And they don't care, because the percentage of people dependent on government benefits there dwarfs even our country. They have traded individual liberty and dignity for welfare and dependency.
All of their freedom-loving people (as well as their religious nuts) immigrated to America. All the UK has left is sexual deviants, welfare trash, "royalty" and a shitload of crazy Muslims.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:41 pm to anc
Interesting story. Best I can think is that the doctors are looking out for the overall well being of the child which includes pain and suffering, not just survivability. It raises interesting ethical questions for sure.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:42 pm to bencoleman
quote:
quote:
's. On a daily basis at work, I see infants suffer and languish in pain until their hearts give out because their parents are waiting for a miracle
What exactly are you advocating for here? Are you saying that the baby's should be euthanized? I absolutely disagree with this.
No. I agree that in this country we have decided that parents rights reign supreme.
There are times in futile situations where infant's are in continuous pain with no hope of getting better, I think it would be in that child's best interest it's more compassionate to them to take them off of life support.
I know if I was kept alive only on a ventilator and have suffered so much hypoxia my brain was so damaged I had no chance of higher brain function and lived in a state of continuous pain and there was nothing that could fix it; I'd want someone to take me off of life support. I wouldn't wish that kind of "life" on anyone.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:43 pm to ctalati32
Can you provide actual statistics instead of laying out a sob story? I'm sorry but there are always going to be issues with any system that are sad and can poke at your feelings. It is inevitable. In this instance a system is preventing somebody that can afford to save their child to death because they own their citizens rights to healthcare. That is not an argument against what we are talking about here. Even though it may be true, although I doubt it.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:49 pm to ctalati32
quote:
I'm not speaking to this case in particular because I don't know all of the facts of his diagnosis and what is offered in Rome.
The fact that you think those factors even matter tells me all I need to know.
Letting the state supersede parental wishes is immoral. This wont stop at healthcare, look no further than our own backyard where laws and school policies are attempting to be passed that will flag parents who do not drink the LGBTQAIIP2&! koolaid as abusive environments for children to be raised in.
That might sound fine and dandy to you right now, but realize that the pendulum will swing back eventually and those same laws that allowed the state to push conservative parents around could very well be used to push progressive parents around decades down the road.
The fact that this even needs to be discussed blows my mind.
quote:
In this country we do the opposite. We put parental wishes over the child's. On a daily basis at work, I see infants suffer and languish in pain until their hearts give out because their parents are waiting for a miracle.
So do we start euthanizing children once they're deemed terminal and in pain? You know, to avoid all that suffering and languish...
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:53 pm to anc
This is one of toughest subjects there can be . I am a die hard conservative but I could honestly support free health care for any kid still in high school or below . No elective procedures but simple good old American healthcare( best in the world )Plus allow the parents final say in medical decisions
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:59 pm to wutangfinancial
quote:
Can you provide actual statistics instead of laying out a sob story? I'm sorry but there are always going to be issues with any system that are sad and can poke at your feelings. It is inevitable. In this instance a system is preventing somebody that can afford to save their child to death because they own their citizens rights to healthcare. That is not an argument against what we are talking about here. Even though it may be true, although I doubt it.
Statistics about what, specifically?
I actually didn't make an argument in this case in my previous posts. I explicitly said I'm not commenting on this particular case because I don't know enough about it.
I also have said I think our system of having the parents make the final decision is the right one (as opposed to theirs who have the physicians making the decision of the child's best interest as supreme)
*I just did a quick scan of some articles so forgive me if I mixed up some of the facts
But they aren't "preventing somebody that can afford to save their child to death because they own their citizens rights to healthcare"
That characterization is just the narrative from the right trying to conflate the UK's system of who decides what's in the best interest of the child with socialized medicine.
The therapy is experimental not proven to work. Now, I personally wouldn't ban someone from trying it. I would tell them I don't think it'll work and they are prolonging the suffering of their kid and causing harm in their child in a situation where there is likely no benefit.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 10:04 pm to anc
I can’t see any possible justification. The parents should be able to do this. It’s horribly sad.
Posted on 4/24/18 at 10:07 pm to Azkiger
quote:
quote:
I'm not speaking to this case in particular because I don't know all of the facts of his diagnosis and what is offered in Rome.
The fact that you think those factors even matter tells me all I need to know.
Letting the state supersede parental wishes is immoral. This wont stop at healthcare, look no further than our own backyard where laws and school policies are attempting to be passed that will flag parents who do not drink the LGBTQAIIP2&! koolaid as abusive environments for children to be raised in.
That might sound fine and dandy to you right now, but realize that the pendulum will swing back eventually and those same laws that allowed the state to push conservative parents around could very well be used to push progressive parents around decades down the road.
The fact that this even needs to be discussed blows my mind.
The fact that you can't make an argument without denigrating the LGBTQI community without saying " LGBTQAIIP2&" tells me all I need to know about the educated and adult conversations we can have on this subject
Also if you don't think his diagnosis and what the treatment are matters you obviously know nothing about medicine.
For example, if a patient has no functional brain and is in overt heart failure but you want to do a kidney transplant. That's cruel to put that kid through all that suffering and recovery for something that won't help the overall picture.
So yes, diagnosis, and therapy offered matters.
quote:
quote:
In this country we do the opposite. We put parental wishes over the child's. On a daily basis at work, I see infants suffer and languish in pain until their hearts give out because their parents are waiting for a miracle.
So do we start euthanizing children once they're deemed terminal and in pain? You know, to avoid all that suffering and languish...
I've said in previous posts that I don't think I as a physician should make that decision for a parent. But, it's a conversation that physicians have with families all the time, when there is a futile case, that you don't want to prolong suffering if there's nothing you can do for them so taking them off of ventilator may be in their best interest, but it's the family's call ultimately
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 10:08 pm
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