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Started By
Message
re: Jones “The Second Amendment is not an absolute right, not a God-given right"
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:33 am to Bard
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:33 am to Bard
quote:
Ideally, yes. Government is akin to a living organism and just like any living organism it seeks to grow. That growth will often mean the erosion of freedoms for citizens, eventually eating into natural rights.
This is the fundamentally philosophy of progressivism.
1
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:36 am to upgrayedd
Madison's original draft:
quote:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.[
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:38 am to JuiceTerry
quote:
There's no such thing as a God given right, Roy
So, you and your 'Community' get to decide whether or not I get to select what tools I use to defend/protect my Family instead of waiting for your Bureaucracy to come and document the carnage? Or my Freedom...from tyrannical Government? BS!
You are exactly what/why the Founder's wrote the Constitution to protect and secure Individuals right to be FREE...from JT. Free from 'Mob Rule' Fascists who desire to cram their views down free people's throats.
God-given Right is just like believing in the existence of God....all subjective. And if one side of those two polar belief Groups tries to subordinate the Freedom to choose of the other....dogfight!
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:39 am to TigersFan64
quote:Yep, commit certain crimes those right are absolved. That is what he means, not that some Dem can apply whatever theory he devised to the Constitution.
"absolute right."
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:41 am to Antonio Moss
quote:Da fuq!?!?!? Someone believes this bullshite? and VOTES frick
Ideally, yes. Government is akin to a living organism and just like any living organism it seeks to grow. That growth will often mean the erosion of freedoms for citizens, eventually eating into natural rights.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:44 am to ninthward
quote:
Da fuq!?!?!? Someone believes this bullshite? and VOTES frick
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not a supporter of it at all, just acknowledging that it exists.
AM's point was that government exists to protect the natural rights of its citizens, my point was that it does but only under ideal conditions and eventually those will be eroded by that same government.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:45 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
No right is absolute
Agreed. So why do some people still insist to the contrary on the Second Amendment?
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:48 am to TigersFan64
quote:
Agreed. So why do some people still insist to the contrary on the Second Amendment?
Because they see firearms as the cause of violent deaths, not the assmonkies wielding those firearms. That there are already laws in place that are broken is irrelevant to them.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i mean all rights are "god given"
they certainly are not given by government
Government is the lib/prog God.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:52 am to Bard
quote:That's because it has nothing to so with firearms.
Because they see firearms as the cause of violent deaths, not the assmonkies wielding those firearms. That there are already laws in place that are broken is irrelevant to them.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:53 am to Antonio Moss
No, sorry but you are incorrect. You need to learn the meaning of "well-regulated." It does not mean a loose collection of people with guns doing whatever they want to. And the concept of state-controlled militias had been around before the drafting of the Second Amendment. And the drafters were all very aware of Shay's Rebellion. That was very much on their minds at the time. They saw the danger of powerful people forming their own private armies to overthrow the government. At any rate, this discussion is rather mute, because the SCOTUS has already ruled that the Second Amendment is NOT an absolute right, but in fact CAN be regulated. Even Justice Scalia said as much.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 8:58 am to Jjdoc
Doug Jones stays out of the limelight nearly all campaign but still manages to lose Alabama Voters by opening his mouth 
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:11 am to JuiceTerry
quote:If there is no God, there are no God-given rights, and "rights" are entirely subjective. No one is owed life. No one is owed freedom. No one deserves to have the freedom to speak your mind or worship as you please. No one has a right to privacy or deserves to be left alone by the government. The only thing that exists in that worldview is the notion that might makes right and those who have the gold make the rules.
There's no such thing as a God given right, Roy
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:14 am to FooManChoo
quote:
If there is no God, there are no God-given rights, and "rights" are entirely subjective. No one is owed life. No one is owed freedom. No one deserves to have the freedom to speak your mind or worship as you please. No one has a right to privacy or deserves to be left alone by the government.
That's right. And Jones also believes in free speech limits
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:14 am to FooManChoo
quote:
The only thing that exists in that worldview is the notion that might makes right and those who have the gold make the rules.
Rights only exist if you have the ability to protect them from infringement. "God given" rights are as good as the paper they are written on if you can't defend them.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:22 am to Bard
Well, the SCOTUS disagrees with you. Even Justice Scalia, who wrote the Heller decision, stated that the Second Amendment is not an unfettered right and can in fact BE regulated.
People like you are beating a dead horse.
People like you are beating a dead horse.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:30 am to SidewalkDawg
quote:That's true, but if rights are not God given, then there is no objective justification for fighting for those rights or to defend those rights.
Rights only exist if you have the ability to protect them from infringement. "God given" rights are as good as the paper they are written on if you can't defend them.
The premise of our Constitution is that we, as human beings, have value and worth that comes from God, and because of that, we have certain rights that exist because of God, not because we or other men say so. Because of that understanding, there is a moral justification for fighting for those rights, because those rights are good because they come from God.
If you throw away God, you throw away God-given rights, and we're left with one human saying to another human that their preference is better than the other's.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:33 am to TigersFan64
quote:
And the concept of state-controlled militias had been around before the drafting of the Second Amendment.
Correct but you seem to be putting your cart before your horse. Having the ability to form a militia (state-run or otherwise) was dependent on citizens already being armed, not the other way around.
Federalist 46 and supplemental writings lay out that the desire to have an armed populace was not only to deter foreign powers but also to deter domestic despotism. Making militia membership be the precursor to the ability to own a firearm flies completely in the face of the reasons for the militia in the first place as the militias were to be under State control.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:35 am to Tigerlaff
quote:
People just need to read Heller before saying anything about the second amendment.
That's a Catch-22.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 9:35 am to TigersFan64
quote:
Well, the SCOTUS disagrees with you. Even Justice Scalia, who wrote the Heller decision, stated that the Second Amendment is not an unfettered right and can in fact BE regulated.
I can't help if they are wrong, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.
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