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re: I’m Starting To Lean To The US Blowing Up Nordstream Because Of The Select Media Stories
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:15 am to Vacherie Saint
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:15 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
Yes. It works at the behest of the regime in power and works to usurp any narratives against that regime. You can continue to pretend that these people are freedom fighters, but the rest of sane society knows better.
What? Intelligence agencies are concerned with one thing and one thing alone, the security of the state and its interests. If there is something the US does that isn't in the interest of European allies, it isn't like there will be no evidence of it occurring. There have been several distinct times where Western intelligence agencies saw things entirely differently and those concerns were voiced. You are suggesting a scenario which doesn't make sense from the perspective of the people who it affects the most.
quote:
No. Which is why I find it telling that the lefties are so dug in on killing this debate. The US is as plausible a culprit as anyone.
Of course they are. We have to proportion belief to the evidence on hand. But the evidence here has amounted to 'the US could have done it' without fully exploring all the options. There hasn't even been a decent description of why a possible third-party might seek to disrupt European oil supplies, because that would begin to include nations in the Eastern Med.
2
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:17 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
Is this an argument? Why are you so angry?
I mean, it is a funny way of describing geopolitics. That is an anarchic, amoral arena. Those descriptions don't mean much when all states participate in it the same way.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:18 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Intelligence agencies are concerned with one thing and one thing alone, the security of the state and its interests.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:19 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
when all states participate in it the same way.
so remind us again why its "dumb" to think the US is a potential culprit. Thanks,
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:20 am to crazy4lsu
They have said they would end the pipeline and now the pipeline is destroyed. COnsidering how inept this administration is they should not be given the benefit of doubt.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:21 am to Vacherie Saint
A sanction doesn't destroy, just makes useless until lifted
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:22 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
so remind us again why its "dumb" to think the US is a potential culprit. Thanks,
No, your moralizations were dumb because all states participate the same way.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:23 am to CitizenK
quote:
A sanction doesn't destroy, just makes useless until lifted
Also...it's not like the entire pipeline is destroyed
It can be repaired
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:25 am to Powerman
quote:
Also...it's not like the entire pipeline is destroyed
It can be repaired
If we allow them to repair it.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:27 am to crazy4lsu
huh?
So do you think the US is a meddling, spying, nation building, corruptocracy or not? Here's a helpful hint to get you started: They are
So do you think the US is a meddling, spying, nation building, corruptocracy or not? Here's a helpful hint to get you started: They are
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:30 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
So do you think the US is a meddling, spying, nation building, corruptocracy or not? Here's a helpful hint to get you started: They are
So are all states. Again, suggesting that the US is unique in this regard is hilarious, because nearly every state, it can be argued, exists as a kleptocracy on some level. The main difference is that the US has the capacity to even attempt nation-building, which is something that no other nation has at the moment.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:34 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
So are all states. Again, suggesting that the US is unique in this regard is hilarious, because nearly every state, it can be argued, exists as a kleptocracy on some level.
I never argued otherwise.
quote:
The main difference is that the US has the capacity to even attempt nation-building, which is something that no other nation has at the moment
The Russians and Chinese did this remarkably well throughout the decades following WWII. The US cut its nation building teeth responding to these revolutions.
But nation building aside, to deny the possibility that the US destroyed this pipeline is to deny history, logic, and sanity.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:38 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
But nation building aside, to deny the possibility that the US destroyed this pipeline is to deny history, logic, and sanity.
Nobody is denying the possibility. Some people are just saying that it's less likely than Russia or, hell, Ukraine.
The primary argument why it would be the US is kind of asinine (that we feared Germany would come to a deal by themselves with Russia). People dismiss my argument that Putin loves to create talking points to insulate him but most people doing that have literally posted talking points Putin created ("NATO expansion") to insulate him from blame in invading Ukraine.
You want to bring up history, let's look at recent history.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:43 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Nobody is denying the possibility.
Really? Cause every time it comes up. Ceazy4lsu, Powerman, Decatur, and Tarzana show up and go completely fricking nuts.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:48 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
The Russians and Chinese did this remarkably well throughout the decades following WWII.
The Russians no longer have that capability, but the Chinese are trying. Their initiatives haven't produced sustained results as of yet. India also signaled in 2019 that it was going to increase its FDI, but they have a complicated internal investment problem.
quote:
But nation building aside, to deny the possibility that the US destroyed this pipeline is to deny history, logic, and sanity.
I'm not denying the outright possibility. I'm saying that the risks for the US within the geopolitical context are so great that it would undermine in a direct way what it took great pains to build. The minimum requirement for unilateral US involvement has to at least meet the larger framework of US geopolitical interest. Europe was likely not to buy gas from Russia for too much longer regardless of this war, as there already several projects underway to circumvent Russian gas, so I'm not moved by the short-term arguments relating to Germany and Russia. In addition, the German approach of rapprochement with Russia started under Merkel has been soured so severely that I'm skeptical that relationship will ever be repaired. The sea-change in German military policy is a signal to that. Lastly, Europe has been attempting to prepare for this winter by storing as much gas as possible, as I don't believe Nordstream 2 even entered into service at all and thus was not factored in to the change in European energy policy broadly. The gain for the US doesn't seem worth the massive risk.
This post was edited on 9/30/22 at 10:52 am
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Nobody is denying the possibility.
Powerbottom and Decataur did exactly that
Posted on 9/30/22 at 10:52 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Wait you think that the US blew up the pipelines?
Posted on 9/30/22 at 11:01 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
I'm saying that the risks for the US within the geopolitical context are so great that it would undermine in a direct way what it took great pains to build
They risk nothing if they maintain they are innocent and blame Russia instead. You are arguing in circles.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 11:07 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
They risk nothing if they maintain they are innocent and blame Russia instead. You are arguing in circles.
Again, this argument relies on European intelligence agencies not acting in their own interest. That is nonsensical.
Posted on 9/30/22 at 11:20 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
European intelligence agencies
why would you foolishly assume that the US couldn't pull this off right under their noses?
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