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re: If people think hydroxychloroquine is the cure they will be less cautious
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:35 am to Metaloctopus
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:35 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
LINK /
LINK /
I don't know why you're pretending you haven't seen or heard any of this. And if you really haven't, you shouldn't be arguing about it
What were the patient characteristics? Were they people who are championed by this board as being asymptomatic because they don’t have any underlying conditions and Get better with nothing?
Like I said earlier. There are studies that champion it as a 100% cure and studies that say it doesn’t do anything. I’m hopeful but there is a lot more analysis that has to happen then I prescribed it and it worked!! Prior to making a mass recommendation. That doesn’t mean that it should be closed off to patients while trials are being done and Fauci is doing nothing of the sort.
quote:
But THIS thing, we have to be super careful about
Has Fauci prevented patients from getting it? No. Has Fauci made the FDA not give approval? No. He just hasn’t said that this is a miracle drug.
2
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:39 am to hendersonshands
There's so much wrong with your post it's hard to know where to start. So I won't.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:45 am to bfniii
quote:Maybe...or maybe he has an understanding of how bad this could be if he didn't take those measures?
my problem is that trump is not looking at the big picture and still has everyone sequestered while the country crumbles. he's the one who needs to have a broader view than just the medical community and he seems like he is backing down which is highly uncharacteristic
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:50 am to hendersonshands
quote:
People are mad at Fauci because they slept through high school level science classes where you’re supposed to learn about double blind studies. He’s absolutely right about there needing to be a controlled study. Anecdotal evidence doesn’t cut it in the medical community, nor should it.
In an emergency situation with no alternative treatment, where massive numbers are dying, and an economy has literally been shut down leading to millions being unemployed, you are saying anecdotal evidence showing effectiveness shouldn’t be acted upon?
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:58 am to moneyg
quote:
In an emergency situation with no alternative treatment, where massive numbers are dying, and an economy has literally been shut down leading to millions being unemployed, you are saying anecdotal evidence showing effectiveness shouldn’t be acted upon?
Outside of that one governor I haven’t heard of anyone preventing patients from being treated by hydroxychloroquine and the governor quickly reversed their course. All reading I have seen is that even if the mechanism and evidence is still questionable it is the primary treatment being prescribed
This post was edited on 4/4/20 at 11:59 am
Posted on 4/4/20 at 11:59 am to Adam Banks
quote:
What were the patient characteristics? Were they people who are championed by this board as being asymptomatic because they don’t have any underlying conditions and Get better with nothing?
I don't have a link that states what each patient's "characteristics" were, but given the hundreds of patients tested, just by the New York doctor, it's safe to assume they have many differing characteristics. Which is how you want to test any drug.
quote:
ike I said earlier. There are studies that champion it as a 100% cure and studies that say it doesn’t do anything
Link? I haven't seen any "study" saying it doesn't work. Only butt hurt doctors giving opinions that it won't work, because Trump said it would, and they can't allow themselves to agree with anything he says.
quote:
Has Fauci prevented patients from getting it? No. Has Fauci made the FDA not give approval? No. He just hasn’t said that this is a miracle drug
He can't "make" anyone do anything. He's a mouthpiece. His job is to give facts, and to try to keep the public calm. He is short on facts, as he continuously parrots WHO statements, which are constantly being debunked. And instead of saying "we believe that hydroxychloroquine can have a huge impact, and we're very encouraged", he goes "eh, we don't really know crap about it. There's a possibility, but I wouldn't get too excited".
Even though every report from around the world has said either 100% success rate, or close to it.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 12:04 pm to Metaloctopus
quote:
I don't have a link that states what each patient's "characteristics" were, but given the hundreds of patients tested, just by the New York doctor, it's safe to assume they have many differing characteristics.
You would be surprised. There are many times where studies on drugs get pumped full of patients to get a number and outcome that they desire. Until there is the data that can be reviewed its purely anecdotal and nowhere close to definitive
quote:
I haven’t seen a “study” that saying it doesn’t work
I linked on earlier in this thread. Came out of France same as the initial one. Started treatment well before intubation. Once again. Small study, non randomized. Anecdotal data. Maybe its right, maybe its wrong. We don’t know.
quote:
His job is to give facts
The facts on HCQ are as he says. There may be some benefit but at this point in time we don’t know.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 12:09 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
Outside of that one governor I haven’t heard of anyone preventing patients from being treated by hydroxychloroquine and the governor quickly reversed their course. All reading I have seen is that even if the mechanism and evidence is still questionable it is the primary treatment being prescribed
You need to think of this from the macro level. Obviously it’s being used. That’s the massive anecdotal evidence people are referencing.
How can/should that be applied at the macro level. How does it change the underlying assumptions that made us shut down the economy. How can administering early change those assumptions. How can we get ahead of it and possibly ramp up production for widespread usage.
Waiting for a double blind multi year study while we lose trillions is retarded. This guy shouldn’t be downplaying it. He should be actively investigating and vetting whether it could serve as a way to solve the economic problem.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 12:18 pm to stout
Doctors have been trained to receive their pharmacological information from big breasted drug reps. Until some twenty-something, bubble head comes by with a Panera bread catered lunch to tell Fauci about HCQ and sign her ipad, there is no way he can ethically prescribe the drug.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 12:56 pm to stout
quote:
It has other side effects and in this case it is also being used with other medications and a lot of elderly very sick people
None of the medicines it is used with are new or unknown.
This drug has been used for Malaria and is presently used for Lupus and Rheumatoid Arthritis, so it has already been prescribed often to elderly people.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:15 pm to Adam Banks
quote:different era. different situation. and we now know that tobacco had paid for these "studies."
These used to be common
i get the point you are trying to make but it doesn't work. we're not talking about shady studies behind closed doors that were bought and paid for. we're talking about drs who are publicly sharing their results from a drug that has been widely in use for decades.
quote:that article was cringe worthy. first, "it can have dangerous side effects." not really. ANY drug in the wrong doses CAN have dangerous side effects. this is a drug that has been used worldwide for decades. second, the author states "other clinical studies" but then only cites ONE study - FROM SHANGHAI. seriously. china. the WORST place you could possibly cite statistics from.
LINK
quote:again, this is false. it IS working. this has already been proven repeatedly. no one in the medical community is denying that. not one person has responded to a known case where the drug was used saying it wasn't the drug that worked.
Doesnt mean that it works
quote:and this is also false. northern italy would like a word with you. nyc has been on lockdown and they are probably the second worst hotspot in the world. if what you're saying is true, then fla and cali should have numbers way worse than they do because people were crowding the beaches until just a few days ago
the country is shut down because its the only thing that has been proven to slow the spread for a disease
so your conclusions are based on false premises. you need to totally rethink your position
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:19 pm to Adam Banks
quote:this is factually false yet you keep repeating it
a treatment which has no proven benefit
quote:the risk is almost nothing and there is proven benefit. we can argue the degree to which it works. fine. we won't know that definitively until a year or more.
In fact its the opposite
all of this is beside the point. trump needs to look at the big picture instead of getting lost in physician weeds. their job is to base recommendations on worst case scenario and those models have been revised way down.
again, the country is not even feeling the effect of this outbreak outside of nyc. not even the worst hotspots.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:27 pm to Volvagia
quote:well that's stupid because the criticism of the french study is that they WEREN'T on a vent, had mild symptoms and might have been discharged even without the meds. which is of course itself a stupid criticism by people with an agenda
there is another thread on this board with the conspiracy hat on insisting they are setting up the drug trail to fail by giving it only to the ones on a vent.
you chicken little people need to get your facts straight. you are all over the place
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:30 pm to mmcgrath
quote:how many false statements can you people make? are you trying for a world record?
The target demo is largely people who are obese or have heart disease
the target demographic is senior citizens. comorbidities that you are mentioned exacerbate the problem. they are not themselves the target demographic.
what is wrong with you people
quote:oh my word. yet another factually false statement. basically everyone knows that if you go on the vent, you need to wrap up your earthly affairs.
If you don't have those then you likely will recover on your own
do you people know ANYTHING correct about this situation? i mean anything at all?
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:32 pm to hendersonshands
quote:my word. under normal circumstances, you are right. this is not a normal circumstance.
double blind studies. He’s absolutely right about there needing to be a controlled study.
i will repeat this. you can't have it both ways. if this is a crisis that requires cornteen, then start handing out drugs free on the street corner. if this is not a crisis and we have time for freaking double blind, longitudinal studies, then we can all go back to work. which is it?
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:33 pm to stout
People get flu shots every year, every year, people die of the flu. We can't even cure the commun cold.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:35 pm to Adam Banks
quote:"i don't want to face the facts so i'm going to distract you with special pleading."
What were the patient characteristics? Were they people who are championed by this board as being asymptomatic because they don’t have any underlying conditions
quote:not that anyone would know that
Get better with nothing?
quote:and you have been corrected on this so no need to keep repeating it.
There are studies that champion it as a 100% cure and studies that say it doesn’t do anything
quote:this is a crisis, right? no time for that garbage. start dropping it from airplanes and helicopters over every nursing home in the nation. STAT. that's a medical term for right now.
Prior to making a mass recommendation
quote:and this is an irrelevant point
He just hasn’t said that this is a miracle drug
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:35 pm to shel311
quote:i've already addressed this point.
maybe he has an understanding of how bad this could be if he didn't take those measures?
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:39 pm to stout
We should know how effective CQ is soon. Spain has rolled it out wide-scale.
This post was edited on 4/4/20 at 7:39 pm
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:41 pm to stout
quote:
Our standard for efficacy is a randomized controlled trial. Our standards for clinical significance include a known number to treat and a known number to harm. Hydroxychloroquine has not met those standards in the setting of treatment for COVID-19. However, there is justification for use by a physician in this setting of a pandemic as we have no reasonable alternative if, in their judgement of the current evidence, they believe it could help a patient. Assessment of outcomes will be ongoing.
very simple to say without sounding like a debbie downer
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