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re: "I Went to the Hospital with chest pains. The reality in the ER was interesting..."
Posted on 1/18/23 at 4:27 pm to TigerDoc
Posted on 1/18/23 at 4:27 pm to TigerDoc
quote:
The public got spoiled with some vaccines like polio and small pox that allowed for eradication and set us up for expectations that have led to this bitter backlash.
Our current President also set everyone up for the expectations you speak of.
0
Posted on 1/18/23 at 4:35 pm to TigerDoc
Do you believe the CDC changing the definition of "vaccine" may have led to much of the backlash?
Had they more appropriately called it "gene therapy that may help reduce symptoms and may prevent hospitalization or death" been a better descriptor and led to less chaos/misinformation?
Had they more appropriately called it "gene therapy that may help reduce symptoms and may prevent hospitalization or death" been a better descriptor and led to less chaos/misinformation?
Posted on 1/18/23 at 4:43 pm to Vandergriff
I think the antivaxx movement was looking for ideas on this and found a novel-mechanism vaccine was a prime target of opportunity. The messaging takes advantage of the fact that most people don't understand how gene transcription is different from translation of proteins. Gene therapies are treatments that change DNA such that cells retain the altered gene and continue to transcribe in indefinitely if it works. The "m" in "mRNA" stands for messenger, a transitory messenger like all our native mRNA is transitory. It doesn't change your DNA and is metabolized within days and then it's gone forever. You retain antibodies produced by the new protein inducing an immune response, but unfortunately even those don't last as long as we'd like (hence some of the fading immunity).
This post was edited on 1/18/23 at 9:58 pm
Posted on 1/18/23 at 4:55 pm to TigerDoc
quote:
In Canada, all 3 major parties supported public health recs that were similar to ours and there was and is less drama over it to this day.
The truckers may disagree with your assessment, but you are correct in that Canada was all in on vaccines politically (to the point of Trudeau being tyrannical).
That being said, aren’t they going to allow 14 year olds to be euthanized without parental consent as of March.
If that’s the case, then I’m not sure that’s who we should be emulating.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 5:08 pm to TigerDoc
quote:Sorry. I have no idea as to what "gish-gallop" is.
that gish-gallop
quote:
you have less vaccine drama
quote:As a person of science, I couldn't care less about drama. Obviously you and I are different ITR
and is less drama over it to this day
Posted on 1/18/23 at 5:16 pm to NC_Tigah
A gish-gallop is a debate technique of a long series of quickly-listed objections in a debate that's too much to be addressed by one's debate opponent in his response and thus you win by default (named after a young-earth creationist who'd do this to win debates against evolutionary biologists). You weren't really doing that and I was being a bit flip to summarize that I see some of those listed items are less legit. What's ITR?
ETA: ah, in this respect?
I prefer low-drama, yes, but from a public health perspective, politicization translates into a politicized adoption of the policy by the public. Even with a vaccine whose benefits are partial, those differences matter.
ETA: ah, in this respect?
I prefer low-drama, yes, but from a public health perspective, politicization translates into a politicized adoption of the policy by the public. Even with a vaccine whose benefits are partial, those differences matter.
This post was edited on 1/18/23 at 5:22 pm
Posted on 1/18/23 at 5:33 pm to TigerDoc
quote:"in that respect", I believe.
What's ITR?
Posted on 1/18/23 at 7:51 pm to TigerDoc
quote:
I think the antivaxx movement was looking for ideas
This is genetic fallacy bullshite. There are people skeptical of this vaccine who've never questioned the efficacy or safety of other vaccines.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 8:34 pm to Flats
quote:
This is genetic fallacy bullshite. There are people skeptical of this vaccine who've never questioned the efficacy or safety of other vaccines
That describes me. I have gotten yearly flu vaccines for 10+ years. Now it's been 3 and likely won't again. At the very least, I do not trust anything any government agency says anymore and WILL NEVER take what they say on face value again.
Thankfully they overreached claiming this untested "vaccine" was completely safe, which caused my head to itch, so I didn't jump in line to get it.
This post was edited on 1/18/23 at 8:35 pm
Posted on 1/18/23 at 8:53 pm to NC_Tigah
Too many missed this. 
Posted on 1/18/23 at 8:59 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
I watched Anthony Fauci lie to Congress one too many times to blame his misinformation on ""bad reporting""
They made everything up.
But don’t believe me, listen to them talk about it.
Here is Deborah Birx admitting Covid came from China:
Daily Mail - Birx Interview
Here she is making up social distancing rules which she bragged about in her book:
“I had settled on 10 (feet) knowing that even that was too many, but I figured that ten would at least be palatable for most Americans – high enough to allow for most gatherings of immediate family but not enough for large dinner parties and, critically, large weddings, birthday parties, and other mass social events…”
Here she is acknowledging she lied about vaccine efficacy:
Fox News Interview with Birx
So unless you are suggesting they are lying about lying I’m not sure what to tell you.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 9:15 pm to Flats
quote:
This is genetic fallacy bullshite. There are people skeptical of this vaccine who've never questioned the efficacy or safety of other vaccines.
None of us knows. I'm sure there will eventually be some reasonably decent social science to address this, but for now maybe your speculation is as good as mine for reasons for the backlash, but what it's not due to is signaling through the conventional medical knowledge-making processes, which is what typically happens when new intervention-complications are identified. All they're identifying now is fairly typical vaccine injury.
The dramatic claims, OTOH, aren't coming from credible people and it has people whipped up. People that had credibility have lost it through holding on to undefendable beliefs as evidence unfolded. Others are coming from pre-existing vaccine critics, people selling dubious alternative preventatives, supplements, and the like.
Is it possible that there are Galileo among grifters, but so far none has sleuthed out some ingenious mechanism for harm. What they've done so far is drum up moral panics, which are common in pandemics. There's a mirror-image moral panic going on on the left in groups like the "People's CDC" that continues to push for mandates, more testing, other interventions. Everybody produces evidence or the field moves on.
People will produce viable science showing harm or they won't. The longer they don't, the longer everybody has to decide if they're hold on to a conspiratorial explanation about why their pet theory of harm hasn't borne out.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 9:29 pm to LSUAngelHere1
My father is 79 so got the shot because of his age. phizer. Never had any heart issues never had to take medication. Had to get him to the hospital by ambulance for chest pains. Out of nowhere his heart was erratic and would stop beating for like 3 seconds. . Diagnosed with Supraventricular tachycardia I know it was from the shot. He was to healthy before.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 9:30 pm to TigerDoc
quote:
that there are Galileo among grifters, but so far none has sleuthed out some ingenious mechanism for harm.
This is not true, there are over a dozen papers peer reviewed that have been published that explains a few mechanisms. I posted two in another thread.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 9:35 pm to philter
Ok, good point. COVID is a massjvely published-about subject. I'm sure people are publishing on acute vaccine harm. What's in dispute is this supposed plague of long-term harms that's not being substantiated.
This post was edited on 1/18/23 at 9:36 pm
Posted on 1/18/23 at 9:38 pm to TigerDoc
I agree that'll not be proven or disproven for a while. It takes a long time to see long term effects. Which is also why the government should have never claimed it was tested safe and effective.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 9:47 pm to philter
That's a defensible position. The previous fastest bench-to-widespread available vaccine was 4 years (I think mumps vaccine), but you see medical research repeatedly that gets disseminated and acted on early due to dramatic benefits. You had not one, but two new vaccines with >90% effectiveness against the original strain in the context of a disease in which relatively few people had natural immunity and there were only experimental use treatments. That would be a very hard sell not to bring to the public in the context of an ongoing pandemic that even now is killing several hundred people a day. Meanwhile, the long-term side effects just don't tend to be seen in cases where there isn't much acute vaccine harm. This wasn't like we were giving people attenuated COVID like in early polio vaccines.
This post was edited on 1/18/23 at 9:49 pm
Posted on 1/18/23 at 10:01 pm to TigerDoc
quote:
The dramatic claims, OTOH,
You keep doing these straw man shifts. People talk about why the public is skeptical and you respond talking about anti-vaxxers and people making affirmative claims. Nobody denies that those people exist, but their existence does NOT explain why so many folks who don't fit either description are skeptical and no longer trust the authorities when it comes to covid. Skeptical does not mean "OMG the clot shot will kill you!".
I realize you think it's all a messaging problem but the facts just don't support that.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 10:14 pm to LSUAlum2001
quote:
re-racked a 255lb S2OH lift to the front rack on Sunday and felt my whole sternum crack like I was being adjusted by a Chiropractor.
I must have done something to mine some while back. Some mornings when I wake up and stretch, mine pops just like other joints.
Posted on 1/18/23 at 10:24 pm to Flats
It's a messaging problem and social-epistemic. People are acquiring bad beliefs through trust in social networks that aren't well-structured for vetting facts.
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