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re: I really would like to understand the pro-choice POV as it relates to life
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:57 am to L.A.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:57 am to L.A.
quote:
My question: how is a fetus with a heartbeat not a human being?
For people who are pro-choice, this question is irrelevant. This is why these debates get nowhere.
An analogy I've seen before is that while most people have two healthy kidneys and thousands of people die waiting for them, we do not force anyone to undergo surgery to save someone else's life. We do not forcefully enter their body so that someone else may live. Therefore, we should not force a mother to undergo pregnancy in order to save the life of a child.
Not here to argue this point, only to offer the perspective as I have seen it presented to me.
1
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:59 am to Bass Tiger
quote:
the woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy
Aka “reproductive rights” to progressives.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:59 am to L.A.
quote:
My question: how is a fetus with a heartbeat not a human being?
Pro-choice people don't care about killing a human life.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:02 am to Roger Klarvin
I went to a code with my ER doc to a room with a 90 something woman who was FULL CODE. We walked into the room and it was as pathetic a sight as you would expect.
He asked what time the code was called, one of the nurses answered, and he said "that's time of death, thank you." and we walked out.
He said there's a special place in hell for people who prolong the life of the terminal.
He asked what time the code was called, one of the nurses answered, and he said "that's time of death, thank you." and we walked out.
He said there's a special place in hell for people who prolong the life of the terminal.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:08 am to L.A.
Is a caterpillar a butterfly?
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:11 am to mindbreaker
quote:
I think there are ways to reduce and prevent abortions beside broad strokes of just outright making it illegal. But no-one wants to discuss those real solutions
I'll discuss them. What's your plan?
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:15 am to EKG
quote:
This rationale is an intentional, tired smokescreen
Just 1% of women obtain an abortion because they became pregnant through rape, and less than 0.5% do so because of incest, according to the Guttmacher Institute.
As for saving a woman’s life ... time again we see stories of women choosing to save their child’s life before their own. It’s as if putting themselves first never enters their minds. But in the rare cases where the mother’s life is, in fact, in danger due to continuing a pregnancy, it can be (and is analyzed in each and every case) the upright and just thing to do to intervene to save the life of the mother. See double effect principle.
In REAL and honest discussions about abortion, however, the above two situations are red herrings.
Quoting this because EKG hit the nail on the head (per par for EKG).
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:15 am to seawolf06
quote:I’ve heard this before and it is an absurd analogy. You have to proactively do something (operate) to save a life by donating a kidney. You don’t have to actively do anything at all to let a pregnancy take its course. The “doing something” is the abortion that ends a life in terms of the pregnancy.
An analogy I've seen before is that while most people have two healthy kidneys and thousands of people die waiting for them, we do not force anyone to undergo surgery to save someone else's life. We do not forcefully enter their body so that someone else may live. Therefore, we should not force a mother to undergo pregnancy in order to save the life of a child.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:21 am to Tiguar
I've coded an 87 yo this past month who didn't know what planet he was on much less name, anyone else's name for year and the family want everything done.
I personally think that life begins when you can live outside the womb. I personally am against abortion but don't think I have a right to put my beliefs on other people and put in laws in this matter.
This happened with prohibition and how did that turn out? we are still paying for that fiasco.
I personally think that life begins when you can live outside the womb. I personally am against abortion but don't think I have a right to put my beliefs on other people and put in laws in this matter.
This happened with prohibition and how did that turn out? we are still paying for that fiasco.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:24 am to Lithium
quote:If an unborn child is a living human being, it doesn’t matter how prohibition turned out. We have a moral obligation as image bearers of God to prevent the genocide of millions of little boys and girls.
This happened with prohibition and how did that turn out? we are still paying for that fiasco.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:34 am to Nguyener
affordable birth control, and real sex education for young people is a start. We need to get out of the mindset of indoctrinating our teenagers to think abstinence is the only answer. Kids are going to have sex. Even more so in today's digital age where connectivity is literally the push of a button.
Clean up our foster care system. Lift adoption restrictions and the miles of red tape needed to adopt a kid. Mandatory paid maternity leave for parents also would be a good first step. Reduce health care costs for pre-natal care. Day-care credits based on income.
You could take every precaution in the world to prevent pregnancy and it would still occur by accident. Saying just don't have sex isn't a real solution either. People are going to screw and they are going to screw a lot. That includes young people.
Will it cost money? yep. But if the pro life movement really wants to keep beating this drum but still protect their pocket books then their "moral superiority" is about as valuable as dust.
Clean up our foster care system. Lift adoption restrictions and the miles of red tape needed to adopt a kid. Mandatory paid maternity leave for parents also would be a good first step. Reduce health care costs for pre-natal care. Day-care credits based on income.
You could take every precaution in the world to prevent pregnancy and it would still occur by accident. Saying just don't have sex isn't a real solution either. People are going to screw and they are going to screw a lot. That includes young people.
Will it cost money? yep. But if the pro life movement really wants to keep beating this drum but still protect their pocket books then their "moral superiority" is about as valuable as dust.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:37 am to L.A.
How is it not a human being pre-heartbeat?
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:38 am to mindbreaker
quote:
affordable birth control, and real sex education for young people is a start
This and clean up foster care are your big real solutions?
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:46 am to mindbreaker
quote:
affordable birth control
What did you have in mind specifically?
Condoms are literally free at health clinics everywhere and sold cheaply at every single gas station and convenience store in every corner of every block in this country. What more do you want?
If you mean free birth control pills for all women, that's not a solution because 1. Keep in mind that female birth control isn't safe for everyone and has tons of side effects, 2. It doesn't prevent STDs, and 3 do you really want to trust a woman you're just trying to rail that she'd been taking it correctly?
quote:
We need to get out of the mindset of indoctrinating our teenagers to think abstinence is the only answer.
We've been out of this mindset since at least the 80s.
quote:
Clean up our foster care system. Lift adoption restrictions and the miles of red tape needed to adopt a kid.
You understand there is good reason you can't just walk into an adoption agency and walk out with a kid right? I do agree on this point that some reforms are needed but it's a very complex situation. What specifically did you have in mind?
quote:
Mandatory paid maternity leave for parents also would be a good first step.
Mandatory? No thanks. Who pays for that? Which industries? How much do you get paid? Who determines the rate? If it's mandatory, can you decline it?
I don't want government mandated leave. That's a horrible idea to give to the government.
And by maternity leave for the parents I assume you meant both parents and not just the mother? So everyone hwo had a kid is forced into mandatory leave for both parents?
quote:
Day-care credits based on income.
What exactly does this mean?
quote:
You could take every precaution in the world to prevent pregnancy and it would still occur by accident
Pregnancy is not ever an accident. Ever. That's one of the biggest lies told today. And it's told alot.
This is a stupid statement. How can a woman diligently taking her birth control get pregnant by a guy who always uses a condom and pulls out?
You know you can't get pregnant unless a guy cums inside of you without protection on?
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:47 am to FooManChoo
If you outlaw abortion people will still have abortions. There will be young women having at home abortions becoming very sick and dying from these. There were entire wards in hospitals taking care of these patients. And as far as bringing God into it I don’t feel you or me or anyone else should put our beliefs on someone else.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:50 am to L.A.
It’s obviously life but it’s not a human yet. Human fetus, sure. If a caterpillar never hatches is it a butterfly? It is stopping/preventing life. Tough decision one has make but it’s a part of life
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:52 am to bmy
quote:
How is it not a human being pre-heartbeat?
I believe that as soon as the egg and sperm join together and create and entirely new and unique being with new genetic human coding it is a human.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:52 am to Pectus
quote:
Is a caterpillar a butterfly?
Was a butterfly ever a caterpillar?
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:56 am to FooManChoo
quote:
You don’t have to actively do anything at all to let a pregnancy take its course.
Well, that's not entirely true. There is a lot of work done during a pregnancy and you must also consider the care afterwards.
You could argue that the kidney donation is less intrusive over the long term because you don't have to care for the recipient for the next two decades or so.
I agree it's not the best analogy.
This post was edited on 6/24/19 at 8:56 am
Posted on 6/24/19 at 9:48 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
An embryo has a heartbeat. By the same token, so do worms.
It's interesting that you decide to build some cognitive dissonance by referring to this as an embryo rather than a human, but do not do the same thing to worms. It's a worm regardless of stage, or heartbeat right? Ah, but humans are different until some magic happens and they become human.
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