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re: I am a conservative who believes the job of teaching is under paid
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:35 am to Walter Kovacs
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:35 am to Walter Kovacs
quote:
What else are most people going to do with a "Spanish" degree? Hope they got a marketable minor?
I know someone who double majored in Spanish and English.
She's an ESL teacher.......One of 3 at an elementary school.
I have another acquaintance that is an Art teacher. She is constantly complaining about schools doing away with Art, but has no problem with ESL. She also has told me the majority of ESL teachers in Alabama are non-spanish language teachers. Apparently, Alabama has a hidden population of Eastern Europeans that I didn't know about. LOL!
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Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:38 am to Walter Kovacs
quote:
I agree with this, but my point is more that we don't attract good math and science teachers because we don't pay enough for anyone who goes into those fields to view teaching as an equitable option.
For example, I'm a CPA. I could never possibly make what I'm making now as a math teacher without getting a higher degree. I could work for 20 years and still be making less than I am now after having worked at a CPA firm for fewer than 3 years. There's no draw there. Is there a similar situation for English teachers? Art teachers? Music teachers? I don't think there is.
I could make more as an accountant in the central office, though, because those jobs are allowed to be based on what is a competitive wage for their fields.
This is the problem with looking at the total or per pupil cost of public education. You miss the important details.
The teaching field is currently not attracting the best potential teachers. A good friend of mine was valedictorian of his HS class and now works at a public school. He wins every teaching award imaginable, but he's a rarity. Most of the staff is subpar. The better teachers get hired at the one good public school around.
Teaching is hard and most teachers are mediocre at best.
This post was edited on 6/20/19 at 10:40 am
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:40 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
I would go as far as to suggest that we allocate stipends to parents of students with special needs as opposed to providing services. If your child can't make it in a traditional educational setting, then it is time to look into an alternate setting. An allocation of stipends (which would, ironically, drive down costs) allows for that imho.
Hmmm, that's an interesting thought. I would want some tight control over who got qualified to prevent fraud, but that might make some sense. Sort of a voucher for special needs. It would have to be higher than the amount regular vouchers get though, I would assume.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:47 am to volod
quote:
The only thing kicking students out does is exacerbate the problem in the surrounding communities.
No. Kicking 5 or 6 students out and letting 550 learn doesn’t make the surrounding community worse. It makes it better.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:53 am to I B Freeman
quote:
If I had my way all funding would come from vouchers
I am a proponent of vouchers in theory. My fear is that, like basic universal income, they only work well in small sample sizes.
Here are the issues with vouchers imo:
1. Accountability. Are we still relying on politicians to determine "school performance scores?" I would imagine that, in addition to word of mouth and ACT/SAT scores, the SPS would be a factor in the decision making process.
Additionally, what about students that have no interest in college?
2. How does one go about "starting" a school. Who gets access to the current technology? Who has access to the brick and mortar sites? Are trade dchools are part of this system? What about apprenticeship scenarios?
3. How will the requirements for SPED/ESL, currently set by the DOE, be met by said schools? Will all of them be accountable to the DOE. Who will monitor those schools that aren't under the DOE umbrella?
Again, check my post history, I am a proponent of vouchers. However, I don't feel that an implementation system for these vouchers (on such a large scale) has been reasonably put in place.
It would seem that there are issues with the implementation of our current voucher program.
That is how "The School for Sunshine and Rainbows" (fictitional) is currently allowed to rake in money all whilst ignoring the basic educatiomal needs of their respective student body. Don't worry, the state will eventually shut down the "school". However, the "new school" (The School for Rainbows and Sunshine) will shortly open and keep that river of voucher money flowing.
I would say that we need to design the system prior to implementation. Unless, of course, we would rather vote for it... then see what it entails (ACA?).
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:07 am to BigJim
quote:
Sort of a voucher for special needs. It would have to be higher than the amount regular vouchers get though, I would assume.
Even if it is half of the current outlay for spending on SPED students (even if the amount is quite a bit higher than a "traditional voucher"), it would represent a massive savings imho.
As for control of who qualifies fully, that would be only students with a severe/profound designation.
Students with a mild/moderate designation would receive a traditional voucher plus proportionate stipends.
This stipend for "mild" SPED designations would be up to an amount that equals half of the difference for a full SPED stipend when combined with a traditional voucher.
This stipend for "moderate" SPED designations would be up to an amount that equals 2/3 of the difference for a full SPED stipend when combined with a traditional voucher.
So if a "traditional voucher" is $6,000,
and a full Severe/Profound voucher is $15,000, then the Mild designation would recieve $7,500 and the Moderate designation would recieve $10,000.
To go back to the class example with 25 students totalling $300,000 as the setting. Now the class size is 20 ($7500 per child for a $150,000 total).
The SPED portion (once 5 students at $150,000), is now in an alternate setting AND the cost would be lowered (by as much as $112,500).
The amounts in the example aren't exact as they would change from district to district. I would imagine that the wealthiest districts spend more on the nedds of our students designated as SPED. This is simply a proposal that may be beneficial financially, but a study would need to be done. As always...this is just my .02.
This post was edited on 6/20/19 at 11:35 am
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:09 am to Walter Kovacs
quote:
English, Art, and Music teachers are mostly overpaid
There are a lot of 20-something year olds in this country who can't write or read to save their life.
I don't think I would lump English teachers in there with the other two. I mean, English class covers 2 of the 3 "R's (reading, riting, rithmatic)
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:12 am to aTmTexas Dillo
"throwing money at them"
that is a stupid way to look at it. That is like saying i'm saving for retirement. Well shite savings accounts are paying .25% your not gonna keep up with inflation because you aren't investing. We need to invest in the workforce and in our students. You aren't going to change the dynamics overnight and there will be some growing pains but if you want to attract intelligent people into the field of teaching you have to pay them more than 30k out of college and invest in the workforce and the tools to help them. shite you can make 30k bartending at applebees.
arts as a whole does have a place in education... albeit it should be somewhat of a minor one but there is art, music, and many other things you use in everyday that needs artists. Whether it be for branding or marketing purposes or someone that wants to make their own pottery, candles, and paintings. There is business opportunities there and just taking accounting classes you will never learn how to design things that have the aesthetic appeal to the human eye or ear.
that is a stupid way to look at it. That is like saying i'm saving for retirement. Well shite savings accounts are paying .25% your not gonna keep up with inflation because you aren't investing. We need to invest in the workforce and in our students. You aren't going to change the dynamics overnight and there will be some growing pains but if you want to attract intelligent people into the field of teaching you have to pay them more than 30k out of college and invest in the workforce and the tools to help them. shite you can make 30k bartending at applebees.
arts as a whole does have a place in education... albeit it should be somewhat of a minor one but there is art, music, and many other things you use in everyday that needs artists. Whether it be for branding or marketing purposes or someone that wants to make their own pottery, candles, and paintings. There is business opportunities there and just taking accounting classes you will never learn how to design things that have the aesthetic appeal to the human eye or ear.
This post was edited on 6/20/19 at 11:13 am
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:12 am to Jjdoc
We need to split schools up more if we truely want help kids and parents who care . Public schools would be better if they had a school for serous students and one for losers who don’t care to be their . Our problem is more to do with how the education system is ran then teachers pay .
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:13 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
I am a proponent of vouchers in theory. My fear is that, like basic universal income, they only work well in small sample sizes.
Before we go to all-vouchers, I would like to see traditional public school attendance zones grow to include the entire district.
1) Have your magnets still function as they do today - test to get in, whatever.
2) All other traditional public schools become somewhat open-access. If more students want to go to a school than seats available, have a lottery. However, busing is only provided if you attend the school nearest you.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:14 am to tjv305
teacher's pay is one of the problems. Not having the proper resources where they pay for their own pens, paper, books, software etc. Shitty parenting is another problem. It is systemic. there is no one problem is worse than the other and it is gonna be somewhat regional too.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:20 am to yatesdog38
quote:
Shitty parenting is another problem. It is systemic. there is no one problem is worse than the other and it is gonna be somewhat regional too.
There is plenty of research that shows this is an issue.
quote:
teacher's pay is one of the problems. Not having the proper resources where they pay for their own pens, paper, books, software etc.
I have not seen one rigorous study that showed any effect teacher pay had on student performance. Thus the "throw money at it" line you see. If increased pay isn't linked to performance then you are just throwing money at a problem.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:39 am to BigJim
Will paying doctors 30k a year yield the same performance and attract the same smart intelligent people? The teachers with higher salaries are always not in a state like Mississippi that has the lowest pay and perpetually finish last. Some of that is definitely brain drain, some is poverty and so e is shitty parenting. Teaching is a fallback position
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:45 am to Jjdoc
Teachers pension and medical after 30 years are worth a lot more than you realize.
I could argue teaching is one of the most lucrative careers you could go into considering those benefits.
Who else gets to retire in their 50’s?
I could argue teaching is one of the most lucrative careers you could go into considering those benefits.
Who else gets to retire in their 50’s?
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:46 am to yatesdog38
It is also incredibly difficult to fire teachers. For 1 because there isn't enough that goes back to pay or incentives to get people to deal with hellions. 2. beaurocracy.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:48 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
There are a lot of 20-something year olds in this country who can't write or read to save their life.
I don't think I would lump English teachers in there with the other two. I mean, English class covers 2 of the 3 "R's (reading, riting, rithmatic)
English teachers do not deserve a raise. It is easily the best job most English majors will ever get.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:49 am to Jjdoc
If you get the government out of education and restore a free market, teachers will be rewarded for performance and those who don’t do a good job get fired
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:49 am to SquatchDawg
quote:
Teachers pension and medical after 30 years are worth a lot more than you realize.
I could argue teaching is one of the most lucrative careers you could go into considering those benefits.
Who else gets to retire in their 50’s?
It's easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the young about this. People don't wake up to this reality until they see teachers start to retire at unrealistic ages.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:49 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
As a mathematical average...yes. In all actuality, no. In short, SPED eats up a disproportionate amount of that budget. Throw in ESL and it is even less. Basically half of that $300,000 is spent on 5 of those 25 students.
We spend it. It doesn't get to the classroom.
Every problem mentioned in this thread with our schools could be solved if had a true all voucher system and private operators of all our schools.
I want people that see opportunity for change--whether it is a better way to handle special needs or a better way to deal with problem kids or a better way to handle advanced kids or a better way to offer vocational training--to have access to the money to do implement the better ways.
I think school administrators like grocery store owners should be free to run their schools to their liking and to the liking of their customers.
If a family simply will not keep their kid out of trouble or make sure he does his homework you can kick them out. Somebody else may market to such families by designing a school for problem kids.
The bureaucratic crap we put on public school administrators makes the schools just too complicated to operate. We waste a LOT or money and in Louisiana we are delivery a crappy product and have been for decades. It is time we quit saying spend more money and parents suck.
It is time to make REAL changes.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 11:50 am to SquatchDawg
You mean a pension that does keep up with inflation. Teachers don't make enough to invest and Social security sure as hell isnt gonna be around for teachers in their twenty's. The problems aren't terrible now but they are snowballing and 30 years from now it is only gonna be worse.
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