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re: I am a conservative who believes the job of teaching is under paid
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:21 am to Walter Kovacs
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:21 am to Walter Kovacs
quote:
t doesn't. The answer is to kick out students who don't want to learn,
But then they end up mugging me on the street because they are unemployable.
The current system may be screwed, but that is not an answer imho.
2
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:27 am to Jjdoc
quote:
I am a conservative who believes the job of teaching is under paid
I agree with this to an extent.
Science and Math teachers are absolutely underpaid, and we need to be paying them more. I'd say History too, but History in public schools is a joke so I don't feel comfortable going that far.
English, Art, and Music teachers are mostly overpaid. Seriously, what else are you going to do with a degree in one of these fields? If you aren't a famous musician, author, journalist, or artist...what else are you going to do with that garbage degree you got? Nothing. We need to pay the position what it's worth, and these positions are worth less than they're being paid. We need to start discouraging people from going into these fields using teaching is a "fallback plan."
The problem is that you can't pay different teaching positions that way. ALL teachers get a raise at the exact same time and ALL teachers are paid on the same salary schedules. Until this changes, I do not support raising salaries for ANY teachers.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:28 am to BigJim
quote:
But then they end up mugging me on the street because they are unemployable.
How is this different from now?
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:29 am to Jjdoc
Well... the free market should pay teachers what they are really worth..... Oh wait... we don't have a free market for teachers. The job market is controlled by the government. Rut row!
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:31 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
I have hired some outstanding people at market or even below market rates and when they prove out they get a good raise to well above market.
You probably know all of these warnings, but it's fair to recite them.
* People aren't always willing to wait it out if they believe their skills are worth more. Varies by how long they have to wait.
* What leverage does your business have? Are you located in a competitive area or are you a big fish in a small pond?
Thay said, I agree that teaching is a profession where its accepted you wont be paid very well. There are exceptions but those are either administration or people who have 20+ years experience.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:31 am to BigJim
quote:
But then they end up mugging me on the street because they are unemployable.
The current system may be screwed, but that is not an answer imho.
Kicking bad students out will be a huge plus for the system.
These kids are already mugging on the street. Now, they're teaching others to do the same.
Public schools have as many negative influences, probably more, than positive ones.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:41 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Kicking bad students out will be a huge plus for the system.
I would state it as "giving them an opportunity to earn their GED."
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:45 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Public schools have as many negative influences, probably more, than positive ones
The only thing kicking students out does is exacerbate the problem in the surrounding communities. The end result is that it creates cultural blight that (ironically) pushes away other economic opportunities and growth from your city.
If you lose the public school systems, you effectively lost your city.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:45 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
3. Discipline has to be a focal point. SPED students are untouchable, and are the root cause for roughly half of all disciplinary issues (despite being a small portion of the student population). SPED students with "behavioral issues" are only allowed to be "exluded" from school for 10 days...after that, they are pretty much untouchable. This is a HUGE iisue imho.
As most parent do, Me and my wife took our daughter to her first day of school in Kindergarten. Got to her class to see a bunch of unsupervised 5 y/o kids sitting at their desk. The teacher and an aide were in a back room trying to calm down a diaper-wearing, autistic kid.
I sympathize with the kids with special needs, but to what extent do you sacrifice the education of the masses to placate the needs of the few?
As the year went on, the SPED kid was highly disruptive in class. My daughter went to private school the following school year.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:46 am to Walter Kovacs
quote:
GOOD Science and Math teachers are absolutely underpaid, and we need to be paying them more.
I have seen more than few coaches or burnouts teach math.
And there is the rub, if schools where funding based on performance, they would care alot more about performance. The problem is 1) defining performance and 2) giving schools the flexibility to hire and pay good teachers (and fire bad teachers).
Posted on 6/20/19 at 9:50 am to Walter Kovacs
quote:
I agree with this to an extent.
Science and Math teachers are absolutely underpaid, and we need to be paying them more. I'd say History too, but History in public schools is a joke so I don't feel comfortable going that far.
English, Art, and Music teachers are mostly overpaid. Seriously, what else are you going to do with a degree in one of these fields? If you aren't a famous musician, author, journalist, or artist...what else are you going to do with that garbage degree you got? Nothing. We need to pay the position what it's worth, and these positions are worth less than they're being paid. We need to start discouraging people from going into these fields using teaching is a "fallback plan."
The problem is that you can't pay different teaching positions that way. ALL teachers get a raise at the exact same time and ALL teachers are paid on the same salary schedules. Until this changes, I do not support raising salaries for ANY teachers.
I wonder how much taxpayer money is spent on ESL teachers?
I'm constantly told that a roadblock to a good education, is class size. Meanwhile, local school systems are forced to hire ESL teachers, taking money out of their budget that could be used to hire more STEM and traditional teachers, thereby decreasing class size.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:01 am to volod
quote:
The only thing kicking students out does is exacerbate the problem in the surrounding communities.
These students, with or without a high school diploma, will almost universally be an eventual drag on their local communities imho. I would love to see a study illustrating the degree of correlation between SPED students with "behavioral disorders" and criminality. I would wager a coke and moon pie that the correlation is exceptionally high. The resources used for these students is essentially wasted imho. Actually, when you consider the administeative oversight required for these students, they are a major drain on the system financially.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:06 am to jimmy the leg
If I had my way all funding would come from vouchers and people like Jimmy the leg could start their own schools or even a single classroom and implement the very good ideas he has.
Today we spend at least $12000 per student. That is $300,000 per classroom for 25 students. I am sure educators like Jimmy have better ideas how to spend that money than the three layers of bureaucrats between the taxpayers and the students.
(other could start special ed schools and "Paths to GED" schools for the students)
Today we spend at least $12000 per student. That is $300,000 per classroom for 25 students. I am sure educators like Jimmy have better ideas how to spend that money than the three layers of bureaucrats between the taxpayers and the students.
(other could start special ed schools and "Paths to GED" schools for the students)
This post was edited on 6/20/19 at 10:08 am
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:14 am to greygoose
quote:
I wonder how much taxpayer money is spent on ESL teachers?
Honestly, I mind this less than I do mandatory English classes for all 12 years of school. I had no use for English classes after 7th grade. What new was there to learn? My grade largely depended on how much of a quack the teacher was.
You write papers in every class. Why do 8th graders need to be in a class devoted to this? I think English classes past 7th grade need to be only for students who do not completely grasp the English language. Doing this actually would make it make sense to pay English teachers more because each school would have 2-3 English teachers at most (including ESL teachers). My high school in nowhere Alabama could have gotten by with 1 English teacher if this had been implemented. Instead, we had more English teachers than Science teachers. But that is an actual solution and teachers do not want actual solutions.
Nevermind that we're required to take a foreign language on top of that. THOSE teachers really put themselves out there with their crap degrees. What else are most people going to do with a "Spanish" degree? Hope they got a marketable minor? We speak the most common language in the world. Why would anyone need to learn a foreign language unless they simply want to? Why is public education funding being used for this at all? That should be an elective, at best, and only if that school chooses to offer it.
This post was edited on 6/20/19 at 10:16 am
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:14 am to greygoose
quote:
As the year went on, the SPED kid was highly disruptive in class. My daughter went to private school the following school year.
As an educator, I can assure you that this is a VERY frustrating issue. To me, behavioral issues, no matter what is the root cause, are a non-starter. My nephew is autistic. He is wonderfully well behaved, and exceptionally hard working. In spite of this, he struggles academically. The irony is, my friend that taught him was lambasted for my nephews test scores. The "school perform ance score" also took a hit. He will never go to college. To me, the most powerful aspect of his "education" was the setting. He attempted to mimic his classmates. The end result, he functions at a high level for someone with autism. I love him him for who he is (he is an AWESOME kid BTW), but if his behavior interferred with the education of others, then I would expect his removal from tgat setting
For those that think I am dispassionate about SPED, hopefully that information dispels that notion.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:24 am to BigJim
quote:
I have seen more than few coaches or burnouts teach math.
I agree with this, but my point is more that we don't attract good math and science teachers because we don't pay enough for anyone who goes into those fields to view teaching as an equitable option.
For example, I'm a CPA. I could never possibly make what I'm making now as a math teacher without getting a higher degree. I could work for 20 years and still be making less than I am now after having worked at a CPA firm for fewer than 3 years. There's no draw there. Is there a similar situation for English teachers? Art teachers? Music teachers? I don't think there is.
I could make more as an accountant in the central office, though, because those jobs are allowed to be based on what is a competitive wage for their fields.
This post was edited on 6/20/19 at 10:28 am
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:25 am to BigJim
quote:
How? Make it harder to be classified as special ed? Have the determination be made by the state not the local school district? Sounds like a good goal, but how do we do that?
I would suggest capping expenditures for student's with special needs.
A child in a lifelong coma should not be in an educational setting. Keep in mind that child will need a teacher (maybe two), and possibly a para (or two), possibly a nurse, and possibly even an alternative or adaptive PE teacher. The cost can be astronomical. That doesn't even include eventual litigation. It is crazy to me.
I would go as far as to suggest that we allocate stipends to parents of students with special needs as opposed to providing services. If your child can't make it in a traditional educational setting, then it is time to look into an alternate setting. An allocation of stipends (which would, ironically, drive down costs) allows for that imho.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:26 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
A child in a lifelong coma should not be in an educational setting.
This is a big problem being felt all over the nation. I have no problem with special needs students spending time in classes with the other students, but this push to have them spend ALL of their time in class with other students is a real problem.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:29 am to I B Freeman
quote:
Today we spend at least $12000 per student.
As a mathematical average...yes. In all actuality, no. In short, SPED eats up a disproportionate amount of that budget. Throw in ESL and it is even less. Basically half of that $300,000 is spent on 5 of those 25 students.
Posted on 6/20/19 at 10:30 am to Jjdoc
quote:
I am a conservative who believes the job of teaching is under paid
So am I. If you think throwing money at them is going to change a progressive/socialist bent of a government worker to a conservative, you are mistaken.
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