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re: How does one successfully argue with a liberal?
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:50 pm to TDsngumbo
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:50 pm to TDsngumbo
quote:
I usually just ignore it but when I decide to engage him with facts and well-thought out statements, he just counters with idiotic statements and tries to call me stupid
The goal isn't to change their mind, which is borderline impossible for many of them.
The goal is to do exactly what you're doing. Call them out on their idiocy and let them make fools of themselves in front of everyone.
Most rational people can see through the same boring name-calling and emotionally fueled rants. And if they were on the fence with whatever the debate was about, they probably aren't anymore.
1
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:52 pm to TDsngumbo
quote:
How does one successfully argue with a liberal?
Is this a trick question? Because everyone knows that they are devoid of any coherent argument.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:53 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
facts behind you on why socialism is due to fail and why it would never work in the US.
If you want to follow the Shapiro argument he would simply say that they are making a moral argument on the side of equality of outcome and you should therefore make a moral argument as to why socialism is organized theft. That you should not engage them in a logical statistical argument packed with facts
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:55 pm to TDsngumbo
They don't argue back if you keep your foot on their throat.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:56 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
you'll need facts behind you on why socialism is due to fail and why it would never work in the US.
That’s easy. Just ask them to point to a non homogeneous society where it has worked. After you define non homogeneous for them they will stare blankly at their appletini.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 1:57 pm to TDsngumbo
i'll tell you in my book "how to argue with a liberal" coming out later this year most likely
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:00 pm to geauxtigahs87
quote:
Call them out on their idiocy and let them make fools of themselves in front of everyone.
Correct. And it's lots of fun IRL. An example:
College cafeteria. 5 of us at a table. Me vs. Leftist woman (and lesbian) with 2 college degrees.
Her: 'Capital punishment should be abolished.'
Me: 'Why?'
Her: 'Because it is immoral for the state to take human life.'
Me: 'So, you support slavery.'
Her: 'What!!?'
Me: 'It took the state killing millions of lives to abolish it in the civil war.'
Her: 'But slavery was immoral.'
Me: 'Yes, but it existed and a war ended it.'
Her: 'But it never should have existed.'
Me: 'OK, here is the legislative paradigm. You are a member of the Senate in 1860. There is a bill before you that will free all the slaves. If you vote 'yes' you know that it will cause a war that will kill millions. If you vote 'no' then you support slavery. How do you vote? Yes or No?'
Her: 'I've got to go.'
She walked out as the other 3 laughed at her.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:01 pm to BOSCEAUX
quote:100% chance this argument wont work. Although your argument is one I do have a tendency to make on a smaller scope of socialism like healthcare (put to not only homogoneous nature of these countries but the population size and infrastructure)
That’s easy. Just ask them to point to a non homogeneous society where it has worked.
They will simply say it has not been implemented correctly instead of recognizing the inherent fault that the system fails because it goes entirely against human nature
socialism has not even worked in homogoneous societies without the implementation of some capitalistic reforms in economics
This post was edited on 2/12/18 at 2:04 pm
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:03 pm to BOSCEAUX
quote:
That’s easy. Just ask them to point to a non homogeneous society where it has worked. After you define non homogeneous for them they will stare blankly at their appletini.
The thing is I disagree with that. America is a non-homogeneous society, and we're the greatest country in the history of the world. I think the more we learn from people with different backgrounds, the more prepared we are against an outside threat that has a homogeneous culture. When these ideas come together, we can see which work (capitalism and Republics) and which don't work (socialism, communism, Islam). Say what you will about Islam, but it is all about homogeny, and if you don't fall into that homogeny then they'll tax, subjugate, or kill you. Communism and Fascism are about homogeny as well. All of their societies end up as third world hell holes.
The problem is the Far Left simply looks at skin tone and sex, and then they discriminate against people who don't have those skin tones/sex and see them automatically as oppressors. I prefer instead to treat people as individuals who if their values align with ours and if they could be useful to our society, I say bring them in. If you're a full blown communist or Islamist, get the frick out. We know which ideologies have brought suffering and which ones have made countries prosperous.
This post was edited on 2/12/18 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:05 pm to ThePoo
quote:
They will simply say it has not been implemented correctly instead of recognizing the inherent fault that the system fails because it goes entirely against human nature
Yeah, they've been able to shut me up in the past with this, but I say try this crap in New Zealand or Australia because I think it has been correctly implemented, and the end result is just a grave of dead bodies. I would vote for Roy Moore before I voted for a Communist.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:07 pm to TDsngumbo
At some point, it takes two to tango and you are arguing for the audience.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:10 pm to Zach
what's annoying right now is that you're too dumb to even understand how dumb you are. If I had an alter and posted stupid arguments to make the right look bad, it would look exactly like your posts here.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:12 pm to Zach
quote:
Her: 'Capital punishment should be abolished.'
Me: 'Why?'
Her: 'Because it is immoral for the state to take human life.'
Me: 'So, you support slavery.'
Her: 'What!!?'
Me: 'It took the state killing millions of lives to abolish it in the civil war.'
Her: 'But slavery was immoral.'
Me: 'Yes, but it existed and a war ended it.'
Her: 'But it never should have existed.'
Me: 'OK, here is the legislative paradigm. You are a member of the Senate in 1860. There is a bill before you that will free all the slaves. If you vote 'yes' you know that it will cause a war that will kill millions. If you vote 'no' then you support slavery. How do you vote? Yes or No?'
Her: 'I've got to go.'
She walked out as the other 3 laughed at her.
You forgot the part where everyone gave you a standing ovation.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:13 pm to Zach
quote:
I've won tons of argument with liberals IRL. You just have to keep the organization of your arguments in parallel lines and not wander off. Stay on point and keep them on point.
Here's a real example of a debate I had with a leftist from Northbrook, Ill. It was at a dinner at Northwestern in Evanston.
Him: Capital punishment is wrong and should be abolished.
Me: No, what we should do instead is anesthetize them first, then harvest organs for transplants, then give them lethal drugs.
Him: That's immoral and repugnant.
Me: What's immoral and repugnant about saving hundreds of innocent lives?
He conceded.
I think this was alluded to in the OP. It was way back on page 1 so forgive my paraphrasing:
"he usually retorts with some stupid nonsense and I usually just leave it there. But I hate to leave it there and let him think he won, when really he just said something so ignorant that I am at a loss for words on how to respond"
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:17 pm to MastrShake
Good melt!...a little runny, but still, not bad. 
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:25 pm to OMLandshark
The great irony of identity politics is that inherent in iteself is the breakdown to the level of the importance of the individual
The fact is there is almost an infinite number of identities you can break the human race down to. This height, that height, this color, that color, this orientation, that orientation. Because of this you can fragment the groups into smaller and smaller groups on an almost infinite level. Which theoretically means you can shrink the identity groups more and more until you ultimately end up with the individual, thus everyone being judged on an idividual basis (hopefully that basis being competence).
Meaning the homosexual male splinters off into a smaller more oppressed subgroup of the homosexual black male. Then even smaller to the homosexual black male under 5'5''. Then even smaller to the homosexual black male under 5'5'' with no hair. Smaller and smaller and smaller until you dwindle down to the individual level.
Because everyone on this planet is a victim for some reason or another everyone can feel that at some point they are being oppressed instead of just recognizing that suffering, loss, disadvantage are inherently part of being human. this lack of recognition is the fuel of identity polictics and why the stories and arguments you see from the far left are becoming increasingly ludicrous and farther from reason. The more and more these groups splinter the less reasonable the argument becomes
The fact is there is almost an infinite number of identities you can break the human race down to. This height, that height, this color, that color, this orientation, that orientation. Because of this you can fragment the groups into smaller and smaller groups on an almost infinite level. Which theoretically means you can shrink the identity groups more and more until you ultimately end up with the individual, thus everyone being judged on an idividual basis (hopefully that basis being competence).
Meaning the homosexual male splinters off into a smaller more oppressed subgroup of the homosexual black male. Then even smaller to the homosexual black male under 5'5''. Then even smaller to the homosexual black male under 5'5'' with no hair. Smaller and smaller and smaller until you dwindle down to the individual level.
Because everyone on this planet is a victim for some reason or another everyone can feel that at some point they are being oppressed instead of just recognizing that suffering, loss, disadvantage are inherently part of being human. this lack of recognition is the fuel of identity polictics and why the stories and arguments you see from the far left are becoming increasingly ludicrous and farther from reason. The more and more these groups splinter the less reasonable the argument becomes
This post was edited on 2/12/18 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:36 pm to ThePoo
I think it's very easy to prove Identity Politics is evil just by looking at how whites treated each other back in the day, and now no one gives a single shite. Does anyone, and I mean really anyone, give a shite these days whether someone is of Irish or German descent? No? It was a pretty big deal when Kennedy was running for President, and it wasn't the end of the world. We almost had 2 Jews in the White House in the past 20 years with Bernie and Libermann. Hell Hillary had to directly rig it for a Jew to not get the nomination. It doesn't matter because they're just white, despite people of German and Jewish descent having mass disagreements in the past.
Plus we had a black guy as our last President, and an orange one this time around. This isn't a racist country, and people who think it is are imagining it and if anything making the situation worse. Obama's single worst quote in the office that helped divide the nation even further is "If I had a son, he would have looked like Trayvon." Just imagine if Bush had said the same thing about a white kid being gunned down in the street by a black person after physically assaulting the guy.
How about we look at choices and lifestyles of people instead of their innate demographic that they can't help at all? This is also why I think the Alt-Right is totally full of shite, because Asians come over here and are insanely prosperous. How about we focus on how they raise their kids that make them more successful than even white people? But no, it's got to be just the skin tone. Individual choices matter, and this society is trying to frick the white guy just as much as an Asian woman. There is a total equality of opportunity in this country.
Plus we had a black guy as our last President, and an orange one this time around. This isn't a racist country, and people who think it is are imagining it and if anything making the situation worse. Obama's single worst quote in the office that helped divide the nation even further is "If I had a son, he would have looked like Trayvon." Just imagine if Bush had said the same thing about a white kid being gunned down in the street by a black person after physically assaulting the guy.
How about we look at choices and lifestyles of people instead of their innate demographic that they can't help at all? This is also why I think the Alt-Right is totally full of shite, because Asians come over here and are insanely prosperous. How about we focus on how they raise their kids that make them more successful than even white people? But no, it's got to be just the skin tone. Individual choices matter, and this society is trying to frick the white guy just as much as an Asian woman. There is a total equality of opportunity in this country.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:48 pm to OMLandshark
quote:Socialism, communism, identity politics, these things do nor care about equality of opportunity, only equality of outcome. The only way you end up with equality of outcome is that we are all dead (which socialism and communism seem to be doing a pretty good job of). They in fact despise equality of opportunity because this means that some humans will naturally excel to a higher degree than others, thus equality of opportunity by its nature detroys equaliy of outcome
There is a total equality of opportunity in this country.
capitalism is Not perfect but no system set up by imperfect beings will be perfect. Capitalism however, is what humans have come closest to in recognizing the importance of individual responsibility and cultivation of thought and effort. It is the system that has best formed itself in the image of human nature to date. It is not a coincidence that it is the most successful economic system of all time leading the most significant breakthroughs in human innovation at a faster pace than any time in known history
This post was edited on 2/12/18 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 2/12/18 at 2:55 pm to ThePoo
quote:
Socialism, communism, identity politics, these things do nor care about equality of opportunity, only equality of outcome.
This is why I always differentiate between a Liberal and a Leftist. A Liberal is someone who wants equality of opportunity. A Leftist is someone who wants equality of outcome. From a Leftist prospective they'll look at 20 nurses and see that 19 of them are female and 1 is male, and then they'll look at 20 engineers and see the inverse, and they'll say this is unfair and this must be changed, these people's wills be damned since engineers make more money. A Liberal will look at the same population and say "maybe they want something different out of life and there is a biological component to this".
There's no way you can have the Equality of Outcome and not be a tyrannical nation. People want different things out of life, and who the frick are you to stop them from pursuing what makes them happy?
quote:
Capitalism however, is what humans have come closest to in recognizing the importance of individual responsibility and cultivation of thought and effort.
Capitalism as a concept also disproves the gender wage gap. Really, if I'm hiring and I know that I could save 23% in costs if I hired a woman over a man, why would I ever hire men? It's just nonsense.
Posted on 2/12/18 at 3:07 pm to MastrShake
quote:
what's annoying right now is that you're too dumb to even understand how dumb you are. If I had an alter and posted stupid arguments to make the right look bad, it would look exactly like your posts here.
Well, now you've gone ahead and hurt Zach's feelings. And just when I was also suffering from neuralgia. But that's OK. Here's a pic for ya.
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