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re: "Fiscally conservative but socially liberal"

Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:40 am to
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
79207 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:40 am to
quote:

See? That's exactly the problem. You believe in God. Great. But you are using your personal belief as justification for the role of government. That's just not a defensible position.





So are you. Your hyperlibertarian view of the role of government, which I'm not exactly at war with here - has very little precedent. It's a personal-preference influenced, idealized view of what American governance should look like.
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
21765 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:44 am to
quote:

See? That's exactly the problem. You believe in God. Great. But you are using your personal belief as justification for the role of government. That's just not a defensible position.



What do you use to determine the role of government? The personal beliefs of someone else?
Posted by Hognutz
Member since Sep 2018
1400 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:44 am to
Fiscally intelligent but socially retarded. This compromise is part of why we're fubar'd today.
Posted by Ex-Popcorn
Member since Nov 2005
2128 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:47 am to
quote:

Every government has some form of a moral framework. Where does morality come from? That can vary depending on that country. This doesn't mean you need to be a theocracy like Iran. But anyone who has read the founding documents would know the Constitution is based on a moral framework


that's just false. This country was founded on liberty and property rights. Legislating morality is what has happened over time...and it's flawed. It necessarily presumes that government exists to impose its moral will on its citizens.

That is precisely what led to the founding of this country...getting away from the "morality" being forced upon the founders by the Church of England/Monarchy
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
79207 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:48 am to
I know it's a pretty trite quote, but it's pretty applicable

quote:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other
Posted by Ex-Popcorn
Member since Nov 2005
2128 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:49 am to
quote:

What do you use to determine the role of government? The personal beliefs of someone else?


No. The objective nature of property ownership.

Like I said, I am *very* against lots of things that I think the government should not be touching with legislation.
Posted by V Bainbridge
Member since Jul 2020
7795 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:51 am to
The progressives aren't liberal. They are against free speech and for censorship and government intervention in everything. I am "liberal" on those three issues and vote republican because they are the closest to supporting them of the two major parties. The democratic party currently pushes an authoritarian progressive platform. Easy choice right now.
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
21765 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:52 am to
quote:

The objective nature of property ownership.


I don't know how to break this to you, but the value you place on property ownership is a personal belief. Some people value it, some don't. Some think it's not "fair" and damaging to a culture.
Posted by Ex-Popcorn
Member since Nov 2005
2128 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:53 am to
property ownership is a personal belief

C'mon...you are just being silly.
Posted by LSU316
Rice and Easy Baby!!!
Member since Nov 2007
29289 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:54 am to
quote:

Your binary thinking is what tears countries apart.


So how do you expect to pay for all this social liberalism if you are fiscally conservative?
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
42941 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:54 am to
quote:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other
Adams was one man among many who voiced opinio s at the time (Hell, he did not even attend the Constitutional Convention), and arguably the most-religious of the prominent Founders. His views are interesting, but hardly representative.
This post was edited on 5/5/22 at 10:59 am
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
21765 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:56 am to
quote:

C'mon...you are just being silly.



No, I'm pointing out that you're not "objective" when it comes to values. Nobody is. Physics is objective; what you think about the role of government is not.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
123914 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:57 am to
I want the government to GTFO of my wallet, GTFO of my family, and GTFO of my bedroom.

You say you oppose one or more of those things? Which one?
Posted by Ex-Popcorn
Member since Nov 2005
2128 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:58 am to
quote:

No, I'm pointing out that you're not "objective" when it comes to values.


No. Whether I own my body and the fruits of my endeavors is the very definition of objective.
Posted by billjamin
Houston
Member since Jun 2019
12500 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:59 am to
quote:

Fiscally conservative

Which party is this supposed to be? Last time I checked they both piss money away left and right.
Posted by Jizzy08
Member since Aug 2008
11225 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:59 am to
The funny thing is, it’s always conservative causes that get removed and replaced—when it goes back the other way, people lose their minds.

Liberals actually think they are morally superior for allowing babies to be removed from a womb. That’s where we are.
Posted by Bham4Tide
In a Van down by the River
Member since Feb 2011
22091 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:02 am to
quote:

I know it's a pretty trite quote, but it's pretty applicable

quote:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other


And what if the religion is one that you don’t agree with? Or the morals of one is unlike the morals of others? You want the government to only apply to your religion and/or your moral code?
This post was edited on 5/5/22 at 11:03 am
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
79207 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:05 am to
quote:

Adams was one man among many who voiced opinio s at the time (Hell, he did not even attend the Constitutional Convention), and arguably the most-religious of the prominent Founders. His views are interesting, but hardly representative.



I think "hardly representative" is a massive stretch. Most direct/somewhat confrontational, sure.
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
21765 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:10 am to
quote:

Whether I own my body and the fruits of my endeavors is the very definition of objective.


Whether you own property is objective. Whether that's a good or bad thing is not; it's your personal belief.

If you'll re-read my posts I talked about the VALUE you place on property rights. You keep ignoring that and pretending that "property rights" is a value.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
42941 posts
Posted on 5/5/22 at 11:11 am to
quote:

I think "hardly representative" is a massive stretch. Most direct/somewhat confrontational, sure.
the amazing thing is that Jefferson was at the OTHER religiosity pole, and the two of them became fast friends.
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