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Message

re: Ending anchor babies and birthright citizenship.

Posted on 1/12/25 at 4:56 pm to
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465757 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 4:56 pm to
quote:

What is the current definition of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"?



quote:

quote:

Parents were here legally, thus unquestionably under US jurisdiction.


That is not how the case defines the terms.


quote:

The real object of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution, in qualifying the words 'all persons born in the United States' by the addition 'and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the national government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases,—children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation, and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign state,—both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law, from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country. Calvin's Case, 7 Coke, 1, 18b; Cockb. Nat. 7; Dicey, Confl. Laws, 177; Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 155; 2 Kent, Comm. 39, 42.


The court is specific. The words of the 14A exclude 2 classes of children:

Those born to diplomats.

Those born to soldiers in an active campaign on US soil or to occupied US citizens during an active war campaign and occupation on US soil.

The court explains its historical precedent to both scenarios:

1. Children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation:

quote:

In U. S. v. Rice (1819) 4 Wheat. 246, goods imported into Castine, in the state of Maine, while it was in the exclusive possession of the British authorities during the lase war with England were held not to be subject to duties under the revenue laws of the United States, because, as was said by Mr. Justice Story in delivering judgment: 'By the conquest and military occupation of Castine, the enemy acquired that firm possession which enabled him to exercise the fullest rights of sovereignty over that place. The sovereignty of the United States over the territory was, of course, suspended, and the laws of the United States could no longer be rightfully enforced there, or be obligatory upon the inhabitants who remained and submitted to the conquerors. By the surrender, the inhabitants passed under a temporary allegiance to the British government, and were bound by such laws, and such only, as it chose to recognize and impose. From the nature of the case, no other laws could be obligatory upon them; for, where there is no protection or allegiance or sovereignty, there can be no claim to obedience.' 4 Wheat


2. Children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign state:

quote:

In the great case of The Exchange (1812) 7 Cranch. 116, the grounds upon which foreign ministers are, and other aliens are not, exempt from the jurisdiction of this country, were set forth by Chief Justc e Marshall in a clear and powerful train of reasoning, of which it will be sufficient, for our present purpose, to give little more than the outlines. The opinion did not touch upon the anomalous case of the Indian tribes, the true relation of which to the United States was not directly brought before this court until some years afterwards, in Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831) 5 Pet. 1; nor upon the case of a suspension of the sovereignty of the United States over part of their territory by reason of a hostile occupation, such as was also afterwards presented in U. S. v. Rice, above cited. But in all other respects it covered the whole question of what persons within the territory of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction thereof.



From the last thread when we had this same discussion
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465757 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 4:57 pm to
quote:

The current interpretation of the Citizenship Clause, except from dullards, is

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and anyone born here (except children of ambassadors and children of enemy occupiers), are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.

I'll just remove the obvious that children of ambassadors and children of enemy occupiers aren't citizens.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and anyone born here, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.

What a fascinating interpretation of the Citizenship Clause. You have to born here AND born here. Seems strange that the author would repeat himself like that.

Not a serious person, I see.
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5107 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 5:00 pm to
quote:

Not a serious person, I see.



Not really.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465757 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 5:04 pm to
Well, you got the caselaw above, anyway.

Also, I have to emphasize this, if illegal aliens aren't "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US or states, they can't be prosecuted for crimes committed in the US (like diplomats).
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5107 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 5:15 pm to
quote:

if illegal aliens aren't "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US or states, they can't be prosecuted for crimes committed in the US (like diplomats).


Unless that phrase refers to something else.

This isn't for you but for funsies

If the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" simply means people within our borders then the Citizenship Clause is repetitive. You have to be born here and born here.

If however the phrase refers to those who have an allegiance to another country, the Clause makes more sense. You have to be born here to people who are citizens.

The 14th Amendment enshrined into our Constitution, in part, a piece of legislation from two years prior. Lyman Trumbull a co-sponsor of that legislation had this to say about the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"

quote:

What do we mean by ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.


So you can interpret the Citizenship Clause as a strange repetition or at least acknowledge that the phrase "AND subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means something different than "persons born or naturalized in the United States"
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5107 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 6:08 pm to
quote:

Not a serious person, I see.



BTW, isn't this what most of the board does to you? They outright dismiss any point you make by assuming it isn't being made in good faith, therefore they never have to consider your points further.

And twice in this thread you've done the same thing. First by saying that people who disagree with you are try hard dullards and then dismissing me as not being serious.

I had a higher opinion of you than that. Not a big deal, just an observation.
Posted by RohanGonzales
Member since Apr 2024
8126 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 6:12 pm to
quote:

I had a higher opinion of you than that. Not a big deal, just an observation.


Now you can rectify that.
Posted by Tall Tiger
Golden Rectangle
Member since Sep 2007
4172 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 6:23 pm to
SFP, my child is considering law school but worried about the bar exam. How hard was it, and did you pass it on your first try?
Posted by oklahogjr
Gold Membership
Member since Jan 2010
40237 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 6:41 pm to
quote:

Not just for birthright citizenship. It would also mean that we could no longer prosecute illegal aliens for crimes they commit on US soil, as a side effect of this proposed change in interpretation.

That's the crazy part to me. Like even if Republicans win it creates an even bigger immigration issue. Laken Riley's killer would potentially be able to challenge and be set free as an example.

Posted by Asleepinthecove
Lafayette
Member since Jan 2023
1967 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:04 pm to
quote:

Silly question, but to what end do you want to end birthright citizenship? It's a big constitutional step, what problem do you think it solves?


End it in the sense that Illegals can’t come to the US, birth a baby, and that baby has citizenship. Either both or one parent should be a citizen for the child to be considered a citizen. Birth right citizenship is a magnet for illegal immigration
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
57873 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:11 pm to
quote:

All it takes is an EO.


No, it doesn't. Such an assertion is ridiculous. See: United States vs Wong Kim Ark.

quote:

Because Wong was born in the United States and his parents were not “employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China,” the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment automatically makes him a U.S. citizen. Justice Horace Gray authored the opinion on behalf of a 6-2 majority, in which the Court established the parameters of the concept known as jus soli—the citizenship of children born in the United States to non-citizens.


EO <<<<<<<<<< SCOTUS ruling

So there you have it. Either SCOTUS would have to overturn its prior ruling and redefine what it considers a "natural born citizen" or an Amendment would have to be made which defines a "natural born citizen" as something along the lines of "someone who was born of at least one American parent at the time of conception".
Posted by wackatimesthree
Member since Oct 2019
10448 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:14 pm to
quote:

unless you believe try-hard dullards like Ann Coulter


At least we know her real name.

You're an anonymous poster on a message board who may or may not be a lawyer.

That said, you're almost certainly correct on this.
This post was edited on 1/12/25 at 7:15 pm
Posted by LordSaintly
Member since Dec 2005
42056 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:22 pm to
quote:

The phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," could provide the cornerstone for such a decision.


Right. It's a big qualifier, but it's clear what's meant by it.
This post was edited on 1/12/25 at 9:28 pm
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
28096 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:27 pm to
quote:

try-hard dullards


quote:

SlowFlowPro




The self-awareness of a quail.
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5107 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:29 pm to
quote:

Either SCOTUS would have to overturn its prior ruling


An EO could or would at least force the court to take up this question of birthright citizenship.

The Fuller Court has been overturned quite often and isn't held in high esteem. Wong Kim Ark leans heavily on English Common law.

If you were to ask Scalia's question of what did the legislators think they were doing, you'd probably come to the conclusion that the Court's opinion is wrong.

quote:

"What do we mean by ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means." Lyman Trumbull


quote:

“Now, all that this amendment provides is, that all persons born in the United States and not subject to some foreign Power…shall be considered as citizens of the United States. … [T]he amendment says that citizenship may depend on birth, and I know of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born of parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States.” Reverdy Johnson
Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5911 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:31 pm to
quote:

End it in the sense that Illegals can’t come to the US, birth a baby, and that baby has citizenship. Either both or one parent should be a citizen for the child to be considered a citizen. Birth right citizenship is a magnet for illegal immigration


But logically they committed a crime by coming here, an administration could take the child away from them and deport them without a constitutional amendment.

I'm not sure what kind of psycho would come here, have a baby, have the baby put into foster care and then not be allowed to contact the kid for 18+ years all the while being permanently banned from the USA.

Doesn't sound like much of a magnet.

All with less drawback than ending Birthright Citizenship.
Posted by tigerfan 64
in the LP
Member since Sep 2016
6111 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:42 pm to
quote:

Laken Riley's killer would potentially be able to challenge and be set free as an example.


Challenged where, in a military tribunal? If the courts have no jurisdiction over his crime, who will he plead to, his consulate or embassy?
He deserves no freedom in the US. He would be immediately deported.
If he attempts to come back, he should be considered an enemy of the state for illegally crossing the border multiple times and taking the life of a US citizen.
Execution by military firing squad.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
57873 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:45 pm to
quote:

An EO could or would at least force the court to take up this question of birthright citizenship.


It could, but considering what I've seen of this court I wouldn't want something so easily slapped down. ACB isn't going to go against precedent, especially if it's controversial (I think the rejection she got from voting in favor of Dobbs made her the Bizarro Fetterman), Roberts hates Trump and would likely side against it just to spite him, Kagan would take the safe ground of standing against the EO just so Justice Diversity Hire would invite her to Broadway plays and not have to listen to the incessant sobbing of Justice Wise Latina.

quote:

If you were to ask Scalia's question


Not enough would, and that's the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Trump running it up the flagpole and seeing if SCOTUS salutes it, I just think it would be a huge waste of time.
Posted by sabanisarustedspoke
Member since Jan 2007
5655 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:48 pm to
quote:

SlowFlowPro
Will need an amendment, unless you believe try-hard dullards like Ann Coulter



So when a Democrat wants something put into law it requires an EO but when a Republican wants to make a law they must go through the conventional channels? Check
Posted by Evolved Simian
Bushwood Country Club
Member since Sep 2010
23117 posts
Posted on 1/12/25 at 7:53 pm to
quote:

birthright citizenship.


This will not end. The framers locked it in.


quote:

Ending anchor babies


THIS, however is not the same topic (despite being related), and we can end this fairly easily.
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