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re: DOJ & IRS going after users of Cryptocurrency. They want their "fair share"!
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:12 am to HailToTheChiz
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:12 am to HailToTheChiz
quote:
I've yet to understand why someone would use bitcoin as a currency. It's too volatile and there is too much belief it will rise in value.
I feel the companies are allowing purchase with Bitcoin just so they can start acquiring some themselves as an investment
I’m a big bitcoin person and I’d never use it as a currency. It’s an appreciating store of value for me. It’s way too new to start using it as a currency. The larger it gets, the less volatile it will be. We need to give it another 5-10 years to lower the volatility.
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Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:14 am to Ross
quote:
Find someone willing for me to send them crypto in exchange for a good
that market is going to be a lot more limited than you realize
quote:
Convert to fiat on one or the plethora of exchanges that exist and operate globally in this space
into what? you're going to have to figure out how to convert it into a currency that the US can't track AND how to find places that accept that currency. seriously this isn't as easy as it sounds like. you run into similar issues with cash, the original untraceable currency.
quote:
Stablecoins exist man
but are they used widely enough to be accepted by many outlets?
and the response isn't "i can convert it to a crypto that is popular enough" because, then you run into the volatility issue of those cryptos.
cryptos can be currencies or investments. they can't be both. i had a lot of faith in their use as currencies and because of that i am a lot poorer than i should be today. cryptos have made a lot of people a lot of paper wealth by rejecting their use as currencies and turning them into (very profitable) investments. but that's all they are, and the currency values have been completely eradicated due to the massive inflation major cryptos are experiencing
since cryptos aren't really currencies right now, if you want to use them to buy things, you'll have to convert them to a currency. that's when the government is going to get you (just like cash). i imagine they're going to make laws similar to ones already on the books with cash, requiring reporting for any event over a certain amount ($10k is the common cash threshold, but i can see it being lower for cryptos if there is a problem with declaring them as assets)
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:16 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Why?
Are you asking why capital gains should be taxed? That’s like asking why murder should be illegal.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:20 am to Penrod
i don't think capitals gains should be taxed
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:22 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
that market is going to be a lot more limited than you realize
You are a bright guy, but you aren’t in a position to make that call. If the dollar were to ever suffer anything close to a collapse desperation is a great motivator. People in Venezuela used RuneScape gold for currency before crypto emerged to escape the destruction of the bolivar.
And yeah, I don’t think converting to fiat on some sketch arse exchange that skirts KYC is going to be all that difficult if you push people far enough.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:22 am to Penrod
quote:
Are you asking why capital gains should be taxed?
Yes
frick the government. Want people to get ahead? Stop taking their money.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:23 am to BeNotDeceivedGal6_7
Its a damn shame that I lost all my guns, ammo, and crypto in a boating accident. Damn boat sank too
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:24 am to Penrod
quote:
That is a real gain and should be taxed
Notwithstanding whether cap gains should be taxed at all, I would agree.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:24 am to Ross
quote:
If the dollar were to ever suffer anything close to a collapse desperation is a great motivator.
i'm not talking about this sort of extreme scenario
but if this happens, the bigger issue with crypto is going to be the completely unstable electrical and telecom industries
i'm discussing normal, every day life similar today. the government is REALLY good at making you declare wealth, especially if you plan on spending it. they've been fine tuning this via the WOD for 40 years now.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:27 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i don't think capitals gains should be taxed
This will never fly on a public policy level; That's how the wealthy make most of their money.
Why do you think capital gains should be exempt from taxation?
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:28 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
cryptos can be currencies or investments. they can't be both. i had a lot of faith in their use as currencies and because of that i am a lot poorer than i should be today. cryptos have made a lot of people a lot of paper wealth by rejecting their use as currencies and turning them into (very profitable) investments. but that's all they are, and the currency values have been completely eradicated due to the massive inflation major cryptos are experiencing
Well compared to fiat that is being debased of course the superior asset class is going to be a prudent investment when valued in that underlying fiat.
In a reality where the fiat standard is abandoned, I believe you’d see the valuation of these crypto assets stabilize dramatically once the adoption phase concludes when compared to the things you might buy with these assets and it shifts from an investment to a currency. But I also think you’ll have something like Bitcoin operate as a store of value and something with more of an inflationary supply act like Cardano or Ethereum as a functioning currency
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:30 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i'm discussing normal, every day life similar today. the government is REALLY good at making you declare wealth, especially if you plan on spending it. they've been fine tuning this via the WOD for 40 years now.
It isn’t quite a binary. General fear of debasement will gradually lead people to alternatives, even if there isn’t a fiat collapse.
I don’t share your vision for the governments ability to regulate this space into oblivion, and I frankly doubt they’ll ever try. I think adoption by nation states is more probable. We are already watching African nations begin to walk this road.
This post was edited on 5/8/21 at 8:32 am
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:30 am to jclem11
quote:
Why do you think capital gains should be exempt from taxation?
however the capital came into the investor's possession, it has already been taxed or was non-monetary (like efforts in building a company)
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:33 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
however the capital came into the investor's possession, it has already been taxed or was non-monetary (like efforts in building a company)
But you are not being taxed on the basis of the asset but rather the gain you realized from the appreciation of said asset.
These are two separate events.
Should you not be taxed on dividends earned from stocks purchased with "after-tax" dollars either?
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:35 am to Ross
quote:
Well compared to fiat that is being debased of course the superior asset class is going to be a prudent investment when valued in that underlying fiat.
crypto valuations are exponentially more volatile than fiat currencies
quote:
In a reality where the fiat standard is abandoned, I believe you’d see the valuation of these crypto assets stabilize dramatically once the adoption phase concludes when compared to the things you might buy with these assets
cryptos would become currencies based on the similar faith that give fiats stability
again, cryptos weren't very valuable when they were seen as currencies. their values have skyrocketed once people were sold on their value as investments. in an unstable world without faith in fiat currency, there isn't really any argument for faith in cryptos as a currency.
they have become too large of a bubble for any sort of near term adoption, also. cryptos crashed worse than the stock market a year ago when society was in panic. you want to know where society went during economic panic and fears of societal unrest? don't look at cryptos b/c they were liquidated faster than cash/equities
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:36 am to jclem11
quote:
But you are not being taxed on the basis of the asset but rather the gain you realized from the appreciation of said asset.
These are two separate events.
if you want to make them two separate events
we can always create artificial events to justify taxation. our current form of government is really good at that endeavor
quote:
Should you not be taxed on dividends earned from stocks purchased with "after-tax" dollars either?
of course not
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:40 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
if you want to make them two separate events
we can always create artificial events to justify taxation. our current form of government is really good at that endeavor
True. That is an accurate summation of the current tax regime in the US.
quote:
of course not
Are we only going to tax labor and wages then? How will the government raise revenue? We ain't going back to small, limited central government of the founding.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:42 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
crypto valuations are exponentially more volatile than fiat currencies
Well yeah, we are in value discovery mode for an asset barely a decade old and one of more relevant variables now and moving forward is the value of the fiat we are valuing these assets in.
I’d expect you’d realize I don’t think valuation is a single variable problem. If not we aren’t operating in good faith on this subject.
As to the rest of your post, I’m content to simply say we do not agree on where this space is going. You’ve got some cryptos that have indeed been pegged as store of values by the market, and others that will be better served as payment rails and have inflationary pressures baked in which will help as the user base grows to maintain stability. You don’t agree, and the good news is we will watch as adoption continues and be able to see what happens in the coming decade and have resolution on this.
This post was edited on 5/8/21 at 8:45 am
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:56 am to Ross
Sucked into another crypto thread
Wouldn't this be more culturally appropriate? They have never had centralized systems of government so any alternative would be more viable. On top of that they are very tribal and don't have the appeal to authority Americans live with. Have you not noticed Americans seem to love them some funny money for decades at this point? Along with the comfort of daddy protecting them.
quote:
We are already watching African nations begin to walk this road.
Wouldn't this be more culturally appropriate? They have never had centralized systems of government so any alternative would be more viable. On top of that they are very tribal and don't have the appeal to authority Americans live with. Have you not noticed Americans seem to love them some funny money for decades at this point? Along with the comfort of daddy protecting them.
Posted on 5/8/21 at 8:57 am to BeNotDeceivedGal6_7
quote:
Cryptocurrency.
There's a reason they call it cryptocurrency and was born out of being able to hide it from transactions. It first evolved on sites like Pirate Bay.
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