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Message
Deindustrialization - Have We Become a Poor Country?
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:01 am
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:01 am
This is stolen from a Ukrainian telegram channel. The author is complaining about the lack of Western assistance, compared to Russia.
Russia is not a juggernaut, and it’s certainly a country with problems, every country has problems, it’s interestingly almost an autarky though. They produce almost everything their country needs internally, and they have clearly prioritized and maintained their production capacity, it dwarfs ours. Industrial capacity is why they’re winning their war, and why Ukraine will lose it.
One thing that struck me in Russia was how clean and well kept it was. The infrastructure was excellent too, its well maintained. This is true in Moscow, but it’s also true in Kazan, or Yekaterinburg.
Critics complain that Moscow is importing millions of poor Central Asians on work visas, so as said, they have problems, and in this case they’re making the bad mistake we did. On the other hand, they’ve started to prioritize and reward large families the way Hungary has.
I’ve believe I’ve written this before, but my time in Russia made me nostalgic. The cohesiveness, the politeness, the basic good order of society, it reminded me of the America of my childhood. I wish that country still existed.
But back to the original point, how rich are we if we can’t make things anymore? If we get out produced by Russia?
Russia is not a juggernaut, and it’s certainly a country with problems, every country has problems, it’s interestingly almost an autarky though. They produce almost everything their country needs internally, and they have clearly prioritized and maintained their production capacity, it dwarfs ours. Industrial capacity is why they’re winning their war, and why Ukraine will lose it.
One thing that struck me in Russia was how clean and well kept it was. The infrastructure was excellent too, its well maintained. This is true in Moscow, but it’s also true in Kazan, or Yekaterinburg.
Critics complain that Moscow is importing millions of poor Central Asians on work visas, so as said, they have problems, and in this case they’re making the bad mistake we did. On the other hand, they’ve started to prioritize and reward large families the way Hungary has.
I’ve believe I’ve written this before, but my time in Russia made me nostalgic. The cohesiveness, the politeness, the basic good order of society, it reminded me of the America of my childhood. I wish that country still existed.
But back to the original point, how rich are we if we can’t make things anymore? If we get out produced by Russia?
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 12:44 pm
21
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:05 am to Lima Whiskey
The US is being forced to re-industrialize right now as supply chains have been upended by geopolitics post-COVID.
Yes, we were de-industrializing in a global economy where it was easier to remove your manufacturing from the leftwing crazies that want everyone living in the dirt and eating bugs.
There are too many important commodities and products that are important to US national security like processing chips.
Mexico is also picking up a load of manufacturing that exited southeast Asia and China.
Yes, we were de-industrializing in a global economy where it was easier to remove your manufacturing from the leftwing crazies that want everyone living in the dirt and eating bugs.
There are too many important commodities and products that are important to US national security like processing chips.
Mexico is also picking up a load of manufacturing that exited southeast Asia and China.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:05 am to Lima Whiskey
frick those jackasses. Their arrogance is staggering. No better than ghetto woman having welfare babies to get a check. They expect us to finance their problem
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:13 am to Lima Whiskey
The argument is it doesn't matter and we benefit from the cheap labor elsewhere so we can focus on tech and finance. But, this is something the writer James Kunstler (Clusterf--- Nation blog) has been talking about for like two decades -- that at some point, your economy based on financialization and not producing real goods is just hocus pocus and will collapse, which is where we are headed.
I'm not sure if you have come across him, but Andrei Martyanov (former Soviet Navy guy living in the U.S.) has been writing about what you say for a while. I stumbled across him in the alt blogosphere when the Ukraine confict started. I thought he was full of crap at first, but he is onto something talking about what he perceives as "real" economies, not fake GDP numbers.
I guess the industrialization doesn't matter unless we need to fight a continental war.
I'm not sure if you have come across him, but Andrei Martyanov (former Soviet Navy guy living in the U.S.) has been writing about what you say for a while. I stumbled across him in the alt blogosphere when the Ukraine confict started. I thought he was full of crap at first, but he is onto something talking about what he perceives as "real" economies, not fake GDP numbers.
I guess the industrialization doesn't matter unless we need to fight a continental war.
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 11:34 am
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:23 am to Bunk Moreland
quote:
that at some point, your economy based on financialization and not producing real goods is just hocus pocus and will collapse, which is where we are headed.
That’s my conclusion, I’m deeply skeptical of our service economy. And the danger with finance is that you can do it anywhere, lose New York City, and the markets there, and we are immediately much poorer.
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 11:25 am
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:32 am to Lima Whiskey
Michael Hudson gets a lot of run in the alt economic sphere, too, and I think he is on this wavelength. He is much less hysterical than a lot of the goldbug doomer types. The CIA needs to hire some old school realists like Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern as they definitely got it wrong on Russia collapsing.
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 11:34 am
Posted on 12/9/23 at 11:41 am to Lima Whiskey
You're going to be accused of being an agent for Putin, but I've heard quite a few people mention some similarities between current day Russia and America of the past. For the past 30 years we should have been pulling Russia toward us, rather than pushing them away. But the power brokers in this country are seeking the controlled demolition of this nation. They don't care about the country.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:19 pm to Lima Whiskey
This comparison doesn't make any sense. He is comparing Russia's defense budget to our foreign aid for Ukraine. Our defense budget dwarfs Russia's. Ukraine is not entitled to all of our money.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:22 pm to BRUNNIN4
quote:
Our defense budget dwarfs Russia's.
Yet Russia outproduces us in basic military equipment, several times over. We have been unable to surge 155mm shell production, they have been able to dramatically increase the output of 152mm shells.
There is a disconnect here.
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 12:43 pm
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:23 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Have We Become a Poor Country?
Seeing how we are $34 trillion in debt, I would say we are the poorest country on Earth.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:27 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Yet Russia outproduces us in basic military equipment, several times over. We have been unable to surge 155mm shell production, they have.
There is a disconnect here.
Russia has bet it all on conquering a neighbor. This just might be a higher priority for them.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:29 pm to BRUNNIN4
quote:
Russia has bet it all on conquering a neighbor. This just might be a higher priority for them.
These are not new plants, they're not opening new production lines. They're simply increasing production at existing facilities, using existing equipment.
We can't do that.
They're also able to source components domestically in a way we cannot.
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:41 pm to Lima Whiskey
The U.S. is the equivalent of an old money family in a rich neighborhood that has what used to be the biggest prettiest mansion on the block but due to family dysfunction and frivolous spending on all the neighbors houses to flaunt their wealth, the reality is they have almost maxed out their credit cards and the mansion looks nice on the outside but is starting to crumble on the inside
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:44 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
These are not new plants, they're not opening new production lines. They're simply increasing production at existing facilities, using existing equipment.
We can't do that.
They've only had years to plan for this. Pretty sure we could do the same. Also, is shell production the only metric to compare? Didn't realize this was WW1.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:47 pm to BRUNNIN4
quote:
They've only had years to plan for this. Pretty sure we could do the same. Also, is shell production the only metric to compare? Didn't realize this was WW1.
quote:
Also, is shell production the only metric to compare?
Artillery is responsible for 90% of casualties.
They're outproducing us in every metric that I'm aware of though, from missiles, to armored vehicles, to air defense systems.
quote:
They've only had years to plan for this. Pretty sure we could do the same.
Why is production flat, it's been two years.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 12:55 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Artillery is responsible for 90% of casualties.
They're outproducing us in every metric that I'm aware of though, from missiles, to armored vehicles, to air defense systems.
quote:
They've only had years to plan for this. Pretty sure we could do the same.
Why is production flat, it's been two years.
They are actively involved, we are not. Nobody really gives a crap about Ukraine.
Look, I agree that the US has outsourced too much industrial capacity, but I am not gonna melt over some Ukrainian telegram post where they seem to be under the impression that they became the 51st state.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 1:03 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
If we get out produced by Russia?
What is this?
quote:
Have We Become a Poor Country?
Really?
Our Industrial output is almost 20 times that of russia.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 2:19 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Either they just don't want to help us as much as they can, or... they don't have such powerful economies.
Why not both?
Posted on 12/9/23 at 2:25 pm to Bunk Moreland
quote:
that at some point, your economy based on financialization and not producing real goods is just hocus pocus and will collapse, which is where we are headed.
You can focus on making chips or microchips. One will make you fantastically rich as long as everyone else is. And when nobody is rich, you can still eat one of these.
Posted on 12/9/23 at 2:31 pm to deltaland
quote:
he U.S. is the equivalent of an old money family in a rich neighborhood that has what used to be the biggest prettiest mansion on the block
We moved beyond basic manufacturing. We cannot do it efficiently. A big part of that is regulatory, other is wages
Even if some returns, its going to be highly automated and will not require any skilled labor.
The gulf between capabilities in the USA is just too great. We moved to high tech and services, too many people didnt evolve with the country.
The only way you can bring back the 1960s is for government to subsidize workers wages.
This post was edited on 12/9/23 at 2:38 pm
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