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re: Deindustrialization - Have We Become a Poor Country?
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:39 am to Elblancodiablo
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:39 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
Wrong.
China subsidized American consumers.
How do you figure?
Thats precisely what happened.
Nothing has helped American poor more than cheap imports since the 70s. Its helped lift quality of life far more than government.
The enemy of American mfg is high wages. Blame monetary policy that destroyed the dollar, not the Chinese.
This post was edited on 12/17/23 at 10:41 am
1
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:53 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
Not near as much as we should
We're #2 only behind a country with like 3.5x our population.
Also, most importantly, we rank highly in the cost/value of goods we manufacture. Nobody has our scale of manufacturing and value output. China produces more low-value, low-margin crap due to its insane population. A couple countries (like Germany) produce more valuable goods, but at far lower rates. When you consider both total output and per capita value of manufactured good, NOBODY is close to the US.
quote:
A much lower quality of life than what we could've had
Uh...what? You have this, literally, backwards.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:55 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
How do you figure?
China used its public resources (aka, taking from its population) in addition to low revenues (due to low salaries) to artificially decrease the price of goods for US consumers. They are literally subsidizing our greater Standard of Living out of the pockets of their population.
These savings allow our population to spend more on more valuable goods/services and have increased our standard of living exponentially.
China is literally taking money from its population to make US citizens live better.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:57 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Nothing has helped American poor more than cheap imports
In the short term, maybe. Long term it destroyed our industrial base, suppressed wages, and destroyed quality of life for future generations of americans.
You really should stop listening to IB on these issues.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:03 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
Long term it destroyed our industrial base
False. Like, incredibly and laughably false.
quote:
suppressed wages
Again, false.
High wages moved to more valuable outputs.
quote:
nd destroyed quality of life for future generations of americans
Emotional...and false.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:05 am to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
it doesn't seem to prevent you from making idiotic predictions and observations again and again.
He’s been wrong repeatedly but that never stops him. He keeps chugging along with the dumbest takes.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:05 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
In the short term, maybe.
Wrong, since the 60s and 70s, this has been continuous.
Its a constant theme on these boards, our poor do better than many middle class in other nations.
To bring back that kind of mfg would require heavy government regulation as its not going to be profitable in the USA.
What y'all are arguing for are less free markets, and more government choosing of winners/losers.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:06 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
What y'all are arguing for are less free markets, and more government choosing of winners/losers.
Yes. The money used to artificially increase the wages of these shite jobs comes from the pockets form producers.
Literal Marxist redistribution. A great example of, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" in practice.
This post was edited on 12/17/23 at 11:07 am
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:17 am to Lima Whiskey
Going back to your OP, here is what the west did to Ukraine by deindustrializing it. Watch from about 41:50 to 47:00. Just disgusting. But, hey, we helped them pivot to free trade with the west!
LINK
LINK
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:18 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Uh...what? You have this, literally, backwards.
Do you really think we enjoy the same quality of life as americans did in the 50's?
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:20 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
What y'all are arguing for are less free markets, and more government choosing of winners/losers.
At some level it’s just a national security imperative, whatever the cost is, we can’t afford to have a supply chain that starts in China. And we can’t outsource whole swaths of industry and become completely reliant on a foreign competitor for a whole range of consumer goods. Some of these may may be American branded goods, made in places like China, but Chinese producers, to pick one country, will eventually just replace those brands with their own.
Free trade was never free trade though. These agreements were long and complicated, and in the case of China, the Chinese government heavily supported the development of their industries. It wasn’t a fair competition.
And on the other side, the American politicians who pushed these trade deals were often compromised by foreign money.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:23 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
Do you really think we enjoy the same quality of life as americans did in the 50's?
Once upon a time, families could get by on one salary, now it take two. That’s not liberation, no matter what the crazies say, it’s a sign of declining purchasing power.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:27 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Once upon a time, families could get by on one salary, now it take two.
Go back to 1950s era QOL and you can afford it on one.
2 BR, 1BA house, public schools, and 1 car.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:34 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
That’s not liberation, no matter what the crazies say, it’s a sign of declining purchasing power.
It is an undeniable sign of a reduction in americans quality of life.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:36 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Go back to 1950s era QOL and you can afford it on one.
This is a lie.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:38 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
It is an undeniable sign of a reduction in americans quality of life.
"Free Money" is a huge part of it. Propping up Woke Corporations and taxing the working man for it is too.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:38 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Free trade was never free trade though. These agreements were long and complicated
That’s how all FTA’s are.
quote:
in the case of China, the Chinese government heavily supported the development of their industries
Do you think other governments do not do that? The US, Japan, Taiwan, and many others have long histories of the state essentially guiding capital investment.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:40 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Go back to 1950s era QOL and you can afford it on one.
2 BR, 1BA house, public schools, and 1 car.
People today wouldn't live in those houses, do their own maintenance, eat 3 meals at home a day, fix their own cars....
This post was edited on 12/17/23 at 11:43 am
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:43 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
"Free Money" is a huge part of it. Propping up Woke Corporations and taxing the working man for it is too.
No doubt, but trading our future for the lure of easy money is the biggest culprit.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:45 am to Elblancodiablo
quote:
but trading our future for the lure of easy money is the biggest culprit.
We didnt.
In fact, we are importing millions of illegal aliens to take those kind of jobs because Americans will not do them.
Saving woke corporate manufacturing jobs isnt permanently changing shite. It leads to more immigration, and more automation.
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