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re: Dash cam video of Philando Castile killing
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:28 pm to the808bass
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:28 pm to the808bass
What does that matter? I don't even see how that could be calculated. Is someone driving down the freeway at 100 a threat to an officer? There's certainly no threat if they sit and watch them go by. If they pursue them, and the speeder wrecks and dies, has the officer killed someone who is no threat?
At what point is someone who doesn't comply with lawful orders considered not a threat?
At what point is someone who doesn't comply with lawful orders considered not a threat?
3
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:30 pm to the808bass
quote:
He wasn't told to not move.
I didn't say he was or wasnt.
I was going over the proper protocol if you are carrying.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:32 pm to reo45
quote:
reo45
:bows:
Your post is the post of the thread. Great post. My sentiments exactly.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:32 pm to troyt37
quote:
At what point is someone who doesn't comply with lawful orders considered not a threat?
The DA determined the officer wasn't threatened. I don't know.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:32 pm to troyt37
quote:
At what point is someone who doesn't comply with lawful orders considered not a threat?
I'm telling you words matter. Castile probably did not think he wasn't complying. He pulled over for the police officer. He handed over his insurance card. He's two for two at that point in compliance. He then tells the police officer he has a gun. He's up to three for three. The officer then yells "Don't reach for it." And he says "I'm not." "Don't reach for it." His girlfriend says, "He's not." And then within seconds of the command "Don't reach for it," he's dead.
He isn't objectively not complying. The officer interpreted it as non-compliance. But he could have been complying the entire time.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:34 pm to the808bass
quote:
The808bass
Let's have an honest discussion
What is the root cause of the problem?
Is it cops? Or is it the unusual amount of crime commited by black males?
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:35 pm to reo45
quote:
That when a cop is called out to my house, as they were awhile back, I sense stress instead of calmness; questioning instead of trust; from both sides.
My wife called the police recently because someone had abandoned a car on the shoulder of the street behind our house. The police officer came to our house, asked for my name and then and went to his car to run my name for warrants. I laughed at him. And I told my wife to never call the police again.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:37 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Is it cops? Or is it the unusual amount of crime commited by black males?
What did that have to do with this case?
Every normal human indicator says the victim was trying to comply in a way he thought he was supposed to comply.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:38 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Is it cops? Or is it the unusual amount of crime commited by black males?
I think it's not either/or. I think police officers buy the hype that they are the thin blue line that holds society together. I think they believe that they are under constant threat and in constant danger. I don't think that's a healthy attitude for civil servants.
Obviously, African Americans make up a substantial portion of people who break the law or at the very least, make up a huge portion as a percentage of those who are caught. But they're not collectively guilty. And they aren't responsible for the actions of each other any more than cops are individually responsible for the death of Kelly Thomas.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:39 pm to troyt37
quote:
At what point is someone who doesn't comply with lawful orders considered not a threat?
When the cops stop pursuing them.
Routine traffic stops that turn into citizen killing melees on the freeways and highways.
Which is why a lot of places have stopped the practice that you don't go after cars that won't stop at all costs because of all the crazy collateral damage.
But it still persists, pedestrians get killed, businesses destroyed...because some cops just can't let it go - that someone didn't obey them.
So it turns into Mad Max because some dude rolled a stop sign.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:39 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
What did that have to do with this case?
I didn't ask you. I asked him because of statements like this...
quote:
My wife called the police recently because someone had abandoned a car on the shoulder of the street behind our house. The police officer came to our house, asked for my name and then and went to his car to run my name for warrants. I laughed at him. And I told my wife to never call the police again.
I just want to have an honest discussion
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:39 pm to AHCOO
quote:
when you don't comply yes you become a criminal.
Sorry officer. I can think of more than one situation where I am legally compelled to tell you "no".
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:40 pm to the808bass
quote:
You're trying to mitigate nuance out of human life, and that's the one thIng that separates us from animals.
I might have failed biology but I'm fairly certain that humans are animals.
ETA: not directed at 808 but pasted from his post. Sorry.
This post was edited on 6/20/17 at 7:51 pm
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:40 pm to WaWaWeeWa
You do realize I'm not black, right?
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:40 pm to StrongSafety
Listening to the encounter:
-Officer had no intention of harming Castille.
-Castille had no intention of harming officer.
Castille mentions he has a firearm while casually reaching for something, likely ID.
Officer: "don't pull it out then"
Castille: "I'm reaching for... "
Officer: "don't pull it out"
Castille: "I'm, I'm not"
Shots fired
So it seems IMO: Castille was still reaching for something, trying to communicate [stuttered] it wasn't the firearm he had just mentioned, to a panicked officer.
Very unfortunate, but in that situation you put your hands up and let the officer retrieve the firearm. Such a little thing that Castille didn't even really think about but it was all the officer could think about in that moment
He did not need to die and it's terrible he did, but officers need to maintain the ability to defend themselves. There was no way to know in that split moment exactly what he was reaching for. Sucks all around
-Officer had no intention of harming Castille.
-Castille had no intention of harming officer.
Castille mentions he has a firearm while casually reaching for something, likely ID.
Officer: "don't pull it out then"
Castille: "I'm reaching for... "
Officer: "don't pull it out"
Castille: "I'm, I'm not"
Shots fired
So it seems IMO: Castille was still reaching for something, trying to communicate [stuttered] it wasn't the firearm he had just mentioned, to a panicked officer.
Very unfortunate, but in that situation you put your hands up and let the officer retrieve the firearm. Such a little thing that Castille didn't even really think about but it was all the officer could think about in that moment
He did not need to die and it's terrible he did, but officers need to maintain the ability to defend themselves. There was no way to know in that split moment exactly what he was reaching for. Sucks all around
This post was edited on 6/20/17 at 7:50 pm
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:43 pm to the808bass
Ok, I agree with most of that
Do you agree that in order to stop what some consider targeting black people, we need to solve the problem of high rates of crime in black communities
Yea, I don't really think that matters in this conversation. Does it?
Do you agree that in order to stop what some consider targeting black people, we need to solve the problem of high rates of crime in black communities
quote:
You do realize I'm not black, right?
Yea, I don't really think that matters in this conversation. Does it?
This post was edited on 6/20/17 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:45 pm to WaWaWeeWa
Yup. Doesn't matter. Just making sure.
I think police are put in the position of being revenue agents for the city/county/state. And that this 1) brings them into contact with citizens far more than is necessary for them to be in contact and 2) builds resentment between them and civilians.
I think police are put in the position of being revenue agents for the city/county/state. And that this 1) brings them into contact with citizens far more than is necessary for them to be in contact and 2) builds resentment between them and civilians.
This post was edited on 6/20/17 at 7:47 pm
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:49 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
Your simple instruction to always follow a cops orders will get you home to your family or back on your way to where ever you were going 99.99999999999% of the time.
Oh man. You'll become best friends with a DA really quick by doing that. Want a search of the car? Sure. Can I seize your vehicle, wife's wedding ring, debit card, bank account, and any other assets you have? Of course. Can you sign this confession for me? You're doing great. Waive a grand jury? Of course. Just please plead guilty for me and you're done.
Our founders imagined a country full of laws and citizens with rights. Not peasants subservient to a (possibly crooked) badge.
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:50 pm to the808bass
quote:
I think police are put in the position of being revenue agents for the city/county/state. And that this 1) brings them into contact with citizens far more than is necessary for them to be in contact and 2) builds resentment between them and civilians.
This may or may not be true.
But that should raise crime rates amongst members in a community.
If black people were attacking police officers unprovoked then maybe #2 could be seen as a cause for that
I guess what I'm saying is. Why would a resentment of law enforcement make someone want to rob, rape, kill, etc to a random member of society?
Posted on 6/20/17 at 7:51 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Do you agree that in order to stop what some consider targeting black people, we need to solve the problem of high rates of crime in black communities
I'll say that there's no guarantee of equality of outcomes across the races. We don't have to prosecute fewer blacks simply to achieve equality of outcomes. We're a nation of individuals and should be judged on an individual basis whenever possible.
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