re: Charles Spurgeon

You like to make your religious points then try to shut others down from talking religion because it's supposedly only for the OT. Which is it bub?

By the way, Luther forced the hand of the romanist church primarily due to the sell of indulgences. Then the romanist church added books to the OT after Luther busted their arse.

Books added after 1500. That is a darn fact, bub!

Spurgeon was a blessed preacher and theologian. The world has been blessed by God through his preaching.

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Denominations are like Buttholes, every one has one and sometimes they stink. I don’t make fun of Foo for his infant baptism even though I don’t agree with it.

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Thanks

I try not to make fun of people for their convictions, even if I think they are wrong. I only think it right to mock those who are teaching heresy and leading others astray with a false gospel.

I do have a differing opinion on denominations, though. Due to sin, denominations are inevitable if Christians are seeking to keep doctrine and worship pure. Obviously no one is “correct” with all their views, but hypothetically, if you were in a “pure” church and the leadership started teaching something that was false (such as that God is one person, or that we are saved by works apart from faith), wouldn’t it be incumbent on you to separate from that church to preserve the purity of biblical doctrine? Obviously that can be taken too far, but in my opinion, denominationalism can be a good thing in a sinful world if we want to honor the Lord above all. We will all be in one accord with the truth in the age to come.

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True that. Cigar smoking son of a gun as well.

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”When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name” -C.H. Spurgeon

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Spurgeon was wrong about the Catholic Church.

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Nah. You Catholics put Mary at the right hand of God and erect staues, false idols, in her name. The Catholic church is nothing but dressed up paganism.

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It is said Charles Spurgeon was the only person Queen Victoria feared in England.


Charles Spurgeon is one of the 3 greatest preachers in English history, the other two are John Wesley and Henry Grattan Guinness.

Henry Grattan Guinness is little known today, but in his time, he was the greatest of the prophecy preachers in the late 1800's. Best known for the dates he forecast on Isarel's return as a nation.

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Are we just talking about British-born preachers or English-speaking preachers.

Because what Billy Graham did is truly breathtaking when you think of the scope.

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Help me understand this. Whitefield (and Spurgeon) were Calvinists. Calvinism says God chooses some to be saved and some to be sent to hell, right? So what is the purpose of an evangelist (like Whitefield) if those who are to be saved are going to be saved anyway?

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There is a lot of discussion out there about election and evangelism in reformed circles so the takes will differ.

I consider myself reformed but I am open to considering a number of ideas about what election entails. I've come to peace with admitting I don't know. I probably tend toward the views of a 5 pointer but I'm a soft calvinist at best.

But I reconcile it by obedience. As in, we're called to evangelism as a directive of scripture. The saving is not our job - the means may be. That the success is guaranteed doesn't negate how God has chosen to accomplish it.

I also find this to be consistent with my "soft" belief in individual/particular election, without being fully convinced that the Barth view is 100% incorrect (in other words, my views on evangelism likely hold up regardless).

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Calvinism says God chooses some to be saved and some to be sent to hell, right? So what is the purpose of an evangelist (like Whitefield) if those who are to be saved are going to be saved anyway?

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Because, as they say, we don't know who is chosen by God, so we must evangelize to everyone. My question is, if you truly believe some are selected, how in the world could you bring children into this world knowing they may be hopelessly dammed for eternity. Calvinism is blasphemy on its face.

Most calvinists will tell you that marriage can't be undone because it's a vow made to God in front of witnesses, but that your Salavation can be undone because of disbelief.

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I reconcile it [whether those who are to be saved are going to be saved anyway] by obedience. As in, we're called to evangelism as a directive of scripture.

The saving is not our job - the means may be. That the success is guaranteed doesn't negate how God has chosen to accomplish it.

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Nicely stated.

Might I also add (regarding Calvinism) that it is merely reinforcement that though God knows the Beginning from the End -- and who *will* ultimately accept Salvation -- it doesn't nor shouldn't preclude us *as men and women* from presuming we can know exactly who ARE or who ARE-NOT among His "Elect." *ONLY God knows* who are in His Book of Life.

As you noted, Obedience to God is "Spreading the Good News" via Evangelism and reaching out and teaching it.

Those who misunderstand, distort and teach Calvinism as a concept of Christian "elitism" of sorts are doing everyone a great dis-service (I would know as one of them who could not understand.)

Calvinism does *not* mean the un-Saved should be discouraged because the "un_Saved are "already hopelessly on the outs"; Calvinists know they are NOT. They will evangelize & pray with encouragement, reminding the un-Believer they *can* and turn their heart around and be counted as, "The Saved," or "The Elect."

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Help me understand this. Whitefield (and Spurgeon) were Calvinists. Calvinism says God chooses some to be saved and some to be sent to hell, right?

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Sort of. Calvinism (also called the "doctrines of grace", for those who don't like the association with Calvin) is a biblical paradigm that highlights the monergistic (God doing the work) nature of salvation compared to the synergistic (working together with God) nature of salvation as taught by Arminianism. What it does is provides an emphasis on salvation being entirely the result of God's freedom to save a people for Himself, where He is doing all the "work" of salvation and salvation being a gift to us, not a reward for our works.

The rub for a lot of people is that they think that man is neutral, or "basically good", and that if God doesn't elect (choose) a person to salvation, that the "good" person is being sent to hell unfairly for not having a chance. That's just not what the scriptures teach, and therefore that's not what this paradigm teaches.

The hinge is the first point of Calvinism: Total Depravity. If man is dead in his sins and cannot choose to trust in Christ because his disposition is as an enemy of God, then two things must be true: 1. man's will is not completely free to choose anything possible (like trusting in Christ), but only free to choose according to his sinful disposition, and 2. since man is naturally at enmity with God, he deserves hell.

While God does elect some people to eternal life, it's not unfair for Him to do so, because if He didn't change a person's will to desire to trust in Christ and to worship God rightly, that person would never want to be saved because he would never want to do what is necessary to be saved. In addition, God doesn't owe salvation to anyone, so He is free to choose from the large mass of hell-deserving sinners any that He wants to for salvation.

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So what is the purpose of an evangelist (like Whitefield) if those who are to be saved are going to be saved anyway

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As others have said, there is a purpose. There are multiple, actually.

1. We are to evangelize because that's what we're commanded to do. We do it to glorify God through obedience.

2. We are to evangelize because we don't know who God's elect are. As Spurgeon once said, if all God's elect had a yellow stripe painted down their backs, we wouldn't need to preach the Gospel, we'd just lift shirts.

3. We are to evangelize because that's the normative process that God uses to save His people. The preaching of the gospel is the power to save, not just the path for salvation. God's Spirit works in conjunction with the preached Word to save those whom He has elected to salvation.

Lastly, a practical benefit of this paradigm of salvation is that it takes the pressure off of the preacher/evangelist. Since salvation is done by God's work, not ours, we can't mess it up; God works perfectly in our weakness and imperfection. What it also means is that we don't have to be manipulative in our evangelism. Many people try to manipulate others into the kingdom by delivering the message in just the right way to bring someone to a decision for Christ, but a true conversion is done by the Spirit, not by hypnosis or emotional manipulation (through music, especially). We cannot fail because it isn't us who are the ones affecting change; it's God, and He doesn't fail to save His people.