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re: As a Catholic, I view the pope the same as I do the English monarch
Posted on 4/19/26 at 4:12 pm to METAL
Posted on 4/19/26 at 4:12 pm to METAL
quote:
Even if I change my mind, get fooled by the devil, buy into atheism then reject and deny God?
So this is a hypothetical. A born again believer has the holy spirit residing in him. He can stray but God's spirit brings him back. So the chance of this happening is probably miniscule.
However, under the doctrine of eternal security, if that were to happen then you are still sealed until the day of redemption. You will experience consequences in this life and loss of reward in the next. And God may take you out of this world prematurely as well.
This post was edited on 4/19/26 at 4:14 pm
1
Posted on 4/19/26 at 4:23 pm to METAL
quote:
Guntoter: The sky is blue
Canon: Nuh uh
Gun: Lets walk outside
Canon: go ahead
Gun: See, it’s blue
Canon: Looks green to me
Gun: dude, look up.
Canon: You throwing in the towel?
I went back and reread this and it made me chuckle.
Everything I have said in this entire thread has been backed up with scripture. The reason I have rebuffed all of these comments are because others are not using scripture, only their opinions, or I disagree with their interpretation of said scripture. Which we are all allowed to do. Nothing anyone of you has said has clearly portrayed your position so lets just keep it honest in here.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 4:27 pm to Canon951
That’s exactly where the disagreement is, though. You’re assuming “once saved, always saved,” but Scripture doesn’t treat apostasy like a minor detour with guaranteed return. Hebrews 6:4–6 talks about people who were truly enlightened, shared in the Holy Spirit, and then fell away. That’s not describing fake believers. Hebrews 10:26–29 is even stronger. It says if we deliberately keep sinning after receiving the truth, we face judgment, not automatic security.
Jesus Himself warns about branches in Him that don’t remain and are cut off (John 15). And Paul warns believers, not outsiders, that they can be “cut off” if they don’t continue in God’s kindness (Romans 11:22). So the idea that someone can fully reject God and still be guaranteed heaven doesn’t really line up with those passages.
From a Catholic view, God is faithful and gives real grace, but He doesn’t override your freedom. You can walk away if you choose to. That’s why perseverance actually matters. So it’s not a “minuscule hypothetical.” It’s something Scripture repeatedly warns believers about.
Jesus Himself warns about branches in Him that don’t remain and are cut off (John 15). And Paul warns believers, not outsiders, that they can be “cut off” if they don’t continue in God’s kindness (Romans 11:22). So the idea that someone can fully reject God and still be guaranteed heaven doesn’t really line up with those passages.
From a Catholic view, God is faithful and gives real grace, but He doesn’t override your freedom. You can walk away if you choose to. That’s why perseverance actually matters. So it’s not a “minuscule hypothetical.” It’s something Scripture repeatedly warns believers about.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 4:28 pm to METAL
quote:
Even if I change my mind, get fooled by the devil, buy into atheism then reject and deny God?
Then you were PROBABLY never a born again believer and the Holy Sprit doesn’t and has never resided in you.
But it will be more like 1Cor 5:5 IF your specific scenario ever plays out. Because I believe you have a tremendous fire for Christ reading probably every post you make in defense of the Catholic Church.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 4:44 pm to METAL
Which one of those do you want to talk about? Let's start with Hebrews. For context, Jewish believers were being persecuted severely and being pressured to return to Judaism. That is what this book was written for.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is either speaking to unbelievers (doubt it since the book is addressed to believers) or more likely I believe is a hypothetical situation. It is saying that "if a believer could fall away," (like if it were possible) then it would be impossible to bring him back because Christ would have to die again. (And since that's not happening, essentially it's saying that if a believer fell away he could never come back and that is not supported in scripture that I know of.)
Edited to add here as 808Bass pointed out that these are believers in the active tense of crucifying Christ again. These are people who have believed and are now turning their back on Christ. (I can get on board with this interpretation because it fits the entire passage)
In verse 9 the writer says: Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. (So everything we just said above is severe but we don't think it applies to you)
In verse 10 he says:
11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Again this is ^^^ reassuring them of the promise God has made to them. Stay the course.
and then the chapter ends like this:
17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
He is telling these jewish believers to hang in there and stay focused on Christ. That he has gone ahead waiting for them and the reward will be worth it.
In Hebrews 10, the entire chapter leading up to the warning verse is talking about the finality of Christ's sacrifice and the futility of the old system. In verse 14 the writer say that by one sacrifice (Christ's) he has made perfect FOREVER those who are being sanctified. In verse 17 he says: “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Then in verse 18 he says since what Christ did is final then no more offerings are needed. 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
In 19-25 he is telling them we have a new way now. Do it this way now, don't go back to the old way....
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Then he gets to the warning verse in 26 about deliberately sinning that everyone plucks out and makes a whole doctrine out of. He is talking about going back to the old way.
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (why? Because the once for all sacrifice has been made) 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? That is the deliberate sin being referred to. That is the ultimate rejection of Christ and trampling underfoot his blood like the blood of animal. Going back to animal sacrifices in the old system is the ultimate middle finger.
This isn't written about a believer that falls into just any ordinary sin or doesn't do enough works. This is about turning from the faith and going back to a system to cleanse your sins that no longer works and insults the son of God that gave his life. Now if eternal security is true and I believe it is then I have to believe these people "who were sanctified" are still in heaven. This passage never says they will be damned. It just says what they deserve.
These are my interpretations so I've given you my position backed by scripture. I could expound on these but wanted to keep you interested.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is either speaking to unbelievers (doubt it since the book is addressed to believers) or more likely I believe is a hypothetical situation. It is saying that "if a believer could fall away," (like if it were possible) then it would be impossible to bring him back because Christ would have to die again. (And since that's not happening, essentially it's saying that if a believer fell away he could never come back and that is not supported in scripture that I know of.)
Edited to add here as 808Bass pointed out that these are believers in the active tense of crucifying Christ again. These are people who have believed and are now turning their back on Christ. (I can get on board with this interpretation because it fits the entire passage)
In verse 9 the writer says: Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. (So everything we just said above is severe but we don't think it applies to you)
In verse 10 he says:
11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Again this is ^^^ reassuring them of the promise God has made to them. Stay the course.
and then the chapter ends like this:
17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
He is telling these jewish believers to hang in there and stay focused on Christ. That he has gone ahead waiting for them and the reward will be worth it.
In Hebrews 10, the entire chapter leading up to the warning verse is talking about the finality of Christ's sacrifice and the futility of the old system. In verse 14 the writer say that by one sacrifice (Christ's) he has made perfect FOREVER those who are being sanctified. In verse 17 he says: “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Then in verse 18 he says since what Christ did is final then no more offerings are needed. 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
In 19-25 he is telling them we have a new way now. Do it this way now, don't go back to the old way....
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Then he gets to the warning verse in 26 about deliberately sinning that everyone plucks out and makes a whole doctrine out of. He is talking about going back to the old way.
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (why? Because the once for all sacrifice has been made) 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? That is the deliberate sin being referred to. That is the ultimate rejection of Christ and trampling underfoot his blood like the blood of animal. Going back to animal sacrifices in the old system is the ultimate middle finger.
This isn't written about a believer that falls into just any ordinary sin or doesn't do enough works. This is about turning from the faith and going back to a system to cleanse your sins that no longer works and insults the son of God that gave his life. Now if eternal security is true and I believe it is then I have to believe these people "who were sanctified" are still in heaven. This passage never says they will be damned. It just says what they deserve.
These are my interpretations so I've given you my position backed by scripture. I could expound on these but wanted to keep you interested.
This post was edited on 4/19/26 at 6:07 pm
Posted on 4/19/26 at 5:04 pm to TexasForever81
I appreciate you reading all of my rambling and diarrhea of the mouth. It eats up a lot of my time but if I can help one person see what I have then it’s worth it.
To your post though… it kind of proves the problem. It turns every warning in Scripture into a loophole: if someone falls away, they were “never really saved.” But Hebrews 6 doesn’t describe fake believers. It says they were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. That’s real participation, not surface-level. Honestly, I think a lot of protestants actually believe what Catholics do here, but when they say faith, they mean the highest level of it. It ends up being semantics, but unfortunately, we need to elaborate further than just “faith” for this very reason.
-2 Peter 2:20–22… It literally says they escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ and then got entangled again. That’s not someone who never had the Spirit.
-1 Corinthians 5:5 actually goes the other way. Paul says to hand the man over “so that his spirit may be saved.” That implies his salvation is in danger, not guaranteed no matter what he does.
The deeper issue is this… the Protestant view makes apostasy impossible by definition. Scripture treats it as a real danger.
From a Catholic perspective, grace is real, the Spirit really dwells in you, but God doesn’t force you to stay. You can reject Him. That’s why the New Testament keeps telling believers to endure, remain, and persevere.
To your post though… it kind of proves the problem. It turns every warning in Scripture into a loophole: if someone falls away, they were “never really saved.” But Hebrews 6 doesn’t describe fake believers. It says they were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. That’s real participation, not surface-level. Honestly, I think a lot of protestants actually believe what Catholics do here, but when they say faith, they mean the highest level of it. It ends up being semantics, but unfortunately, we need to elaborate further than just “faith” for this very reason.
-2 Peter 2:20–22… It literally says they escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ and then got entangled again. That’s not someone who never had the Spirit.
-1 Corinthians 5:5 actually goes the other way. Paul says to hand the man over “so that his spirit may be saved.” That implies his salvation is in danger, not guaranteed no matter what he does.
The deeper issue is this… the Protestant view makes apostasy impossible by definition. Scripture treats it as a real danger.
From a Catholic perspective, grace is real, the Spirit really dwells in you, but God doesn’t force you to stay. You can reject Him. That’s why the New Testament keeps telling believers to endure, remain, and persevere.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 5:05 pm to Canon951
Won’t have time to get to this one til later. Headed to mass. Happy Sunday boys.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 5:36 pm to Canon951
quote:
It is saying that "if a believer could fall away," (like if it were possible) then it would be impossible to bring him back because Christ would have to die again. (And since that's not happening, essentially it's saying that if a believer fell away he could never come back and that is not supported in scripture that I know of.)
But that’s not what it says. It says:
quote:
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
It makes it clear that it’s talking about an actual believer.
The verb anastarountas is in the present tense. It’s impossible for them to be brought back to repentance while they are crucifying the Son of God.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 5:43 pm to the808bass
Let's discuss. I'm open.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 7:33 pm to BamaGradinTn
You are quite literally robbing Peter to pay Paul.
For the sake of argument, I’ll grant you that the verbiage of Matthew 16:18 (Jesus’ use of “this” to identify the rock and “it” in reference to said church) can be subjective depending on your persuasion.
However if we look at 19, while speaking to Peter He says “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
To me, that sounds a bit more direct as to what Christ intends for Peter. This in no way diminishes Paul’s contribution, but I once again have to take into account the weight granted to Peter and the apostles directly by Jesus in Matthew 28 by telling them specifically to “make disciples of all nations”.
I also don’t see it as a competition in any way, which is a weird take IMO.
For the sake of argument, I’ll grant you that the verbiage of Matthew 16:18 (Jesus’ use of “this” to identify the rock and “it” in reference to said church) can be subjective depending on your persuasion.
However if we look at 19, while speaking to Peter He says “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
To me, that sounds a bit more direct as to what Christ intends for Peter. This in no way diminishes Paul’s contribution, but I once again have to take into account the weight granted to Peter and the apostles directly by Jesus in Matthew 28 by telling them specifically to “make disciples of all nations”.
I also don’t see it as a competition in any way, which is a weird take IMO.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 7:54 pm to mytigger
I know what I was taught.
My statement was in regards to recent claims by clergy that nobody has the right to criticize the pope.
Embarrassing to all Catholics.
My statement was in regards to recent claims by clergy that nobody has the right to criticize the pope.
Embarrassing to all Catholics.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 8:00 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
Baptism is a work. It is required.
Baptism is NOT required. It is an outward sign of your transformation, but is NOT required. Were it required, as you say, then the thief on the cross is just out of luck, isn't he? The one Jesus said would see him in heaven.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 8:14 pm to MemphisGuy
quote:
Baptism is NOT required. It is an outward sign of your transformation, but is NOT required.
Do you say the Apostles creed in your Church?
quote:
Were it required, as you say, then the thief on the cross is just out of luck, isn't he? The one Jesus said would see him in heaven.
Baptism by blood, perfectly fine within Catholicism.
Also he joined Christ in Abraham's Bosom, then heaven.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 8:51 pm to gaetti15
quote:
Do you say the Apostles creed in your Church?
Nope.
But it is done as an AWESOME song by Rich Mullins...
Posted on 4/19/26 at 9:17 pm to crotiger0307
I find it fascinating the number of Catholics that are upset with the pope because he criticized Trump and war.
It is almost as those Catholics are embracing Idolatry of Trump. Quite a juxtaposition.
It is almost as those Catholics are embracing Idolatry of Trump. Quite a juxtaposition.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 9:20 pm to Canon951
quote:
These and many others clearly show that Jesus is the rock/founadation/cornerstone of the church. Not Peter or any other human being
I know of not a single educated Catholic who disagrees with this
Posted on 4/19/26 at 9:24 pm to Timeoday
quote:
Please, do tell us when and where Jesus stated this
Mathew 16-18
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
k And so I say to you, you are Peter (Petros in Greek), and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Posted on 4/19/26 at 9:35 pm to Canon951
quote:
Let's discuss. I'm open.
It seems difficult to stretch the hypothetical person in Hebrews 6 to a person who “didn’t really believe.” The passage seems to take great pains to describe exactly what a believer would be like.
Posted on 4/19/26 at 9:37 pm to Quatre Pot
You can bet your very last dollar this Christian will not ever break bread with a catholic or anyone who believes Peter is the guy!!
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