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Are we learning tanks are essentially obsolete
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:24 am
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:24 am
With the Ukrainians holding off Russian tanks with Javelins.
Imagine if they had the combined arms effects of Javelins, drones and air cover as the US would.
Does this show tanks are essentially obsolete on the battlefield today? And was Rumsfeld right the future is smaller mobile self contained forces with drone surveillance and air cover.
Imagine if they had the combined arms effects of Javelins, drones and air cover as the US would.
Does this show tanks are essentially obsolete on the battlefield today? And was Rumsfeld right the future is smaller mobile self contained forces with drone surveillance and air cover.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:26 am to ItTakesAThief
We’re learning that combined arms is important
We’re learning that sending a column of armor single-file down a road you do not control is a bad idea
We’re learning that sending a column of armor single-file down a road you do not control is a bad idea
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 10:27 am
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:27 am to ItTakesAThief
No, they're nowhere near obsolete.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:28 am to LSUnation78
It also depends on what your enemy is using.
If you are facing armor, armor is appropriate.
If you are facing infantry with rifles, armor can work but isn’t your best choice.
If you are facing infantry with anti-tank missile, you chose… poorly.
If you are facing armor, armor is appropriate.
If you are facing infantry with rifles, armor can work but isn’t your best choice.
If you are facing infantry with anti-tank missile, you chose… poorly.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:28 am to ItTakesAThief
I think what we are seeing more is that the Russians suck arse at combined arms, as they always have. They don't effectively use their motorized infantry and/or airborne cav-type forces to screen for and support their tanks. Tanks cannot and have never been able to operate unsupported.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:29 am to ItTakesAThief
You may need to win air superiority first but that does not mean tanks are obsolete. They are needed for infantry support and cover.
Technology always changes the Battlefield. Air power isn't everything either. If you can't hold land, you don't control anything. Armor is important for controlling land areas.
Afghanistan is such a shite place to invade because there are natural advantages to defenders and especially guerilla type ambushes. All the air power in the world didn't do much overall. frickers hid in caves until we left. Unless we occupied the entire land area and fished them out , it didn't matter. Tanks weren't going to be great in their terrain and we didn't have the will to kill massive amounts of people. It takes EVERYTHING to win a war.
Mountain caves don't mean fighter jets are obsolete.
Technology always changes the Battlefield. Air power isn't everything either. If you can't hold land, you don't control anything. Armor is important for controlling land areas.
Afghanistan is such a shite place to invade because there are natural advantages to defenders and especially guerilla type ambushes. All the air power in the world didn't do much overall. frickers hid in caves until we left. Unless we occupied the entire land area and fished them out , it didn't matter. Tanks weren't going to be great in their terrain and we didn't have the will to kill massive amounts of people. It takes EVERYTHING to win a war.
Mountain caves don't mean fighter jets are obsolete.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 10:34 am
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:31 am to Indefatigable
My dad's bomber group the 387th provided support for Patton back in WWII. You don't send in armor unsupported.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 3:03 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:35 am to ItTakesAThief
I haven't watch much footage of the war, but what little I saw had tanks in an open environment. They're not trying to use them in urban areas, are they? That'll get you fubarred in a hurry without infantry screens.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:35 am to ItTakesAThief
quote:
Are we learning tanks are essentially obsolete
I guess you are if you believe everything the MSM is telling you.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:36 am to ItTakesAThief
There are a lot of good answers in the replies to your OP, particularly in regard to combined arms. However, a very large portion of the issue can be attributed to the fact that Russian (Soviet-designed) tanks are nowhere near as formidable as US Abrams model tanks. The armor is thinner and made of steel alloy as opposed to titanium armor on US tanks. Russian design and engineering is a far cry from US design and engineering. You'll rarely (if ever) see an authentic Russian design on any of their ordnance and equipment. Most of it is stolen or reverse engineered from US/NATO equipment, and it's done with substandard metals and materials.
The combination of poorly designed and manufactured armor along with insufficient training and atrocious tactics results in the glaring failure of Russian armor in Ukraine.
The combination of poorly designed and manufactured armor along with insufficient training and atrocious tactics results in the glaring failure of Russian armor in Ukraine.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:39 am to ItTakesAThief
I wouldn’t call something obsolete based off propaganda
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:39 am to ItTakesAThief
quote:
Are we learning tanks are essentially obsolete
In urban warfare with little support? Yeah, they're not too effective.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:40 am to Palmetto98
quote:
I wouldn’t call something obsolete based off propaganda
You let propaganda tell you who to vote for.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:41 am to ItTakesAThief
No. We're learning armor alone may be obsolete.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:42 am to teke184
quote:
If you are facing armor, armor is appropriate.
If you are facing armor, hellfire and maverick missile are important. Having armor of your own is useless.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:43 am to LSUnation78
quote:
We’re learning that sending a column of armor single-file down a road you do not control is a bad idea
I thought we learned that during Operation Market Garden?
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:44 am to Palmetto98
Wow it is pretty much accepted by all sides and 3rd parties that Russian armor has taken substantial losses but the Putin fanboys still don’t want to hear it lol.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:45 am to Lonnie Utah
Also, we have 19D's for a reason....
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:46 am to ItTakesAThief
this ended up as a perfect storm of disaster for the russians.
1 the winter was too warm and they estimated that they would be able to travel overland due to unseasonably warm weather & mud they were forced to the roads.
2 underestimated logistical supply issues
3 underestimated ukranian defenses
4 western intelligence underestimated the strength of the Russian armed forces
1 the winter was too warm and they estimated that they would be able to travel overland due to unseasonably warm weather & mud they were forced to the roads.
2 underestimated logistical supply issues
3 underestimated ukranian defenses
4 western intelligence underestimated the strength of the Russian armed forces
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:47 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Tanks cannot and have never been able to operate unsupported.
This is accurate. Tanks and armored vehicles have always been vulnerable to ground troops, so they require ground troops to support the tanks. If opposing ground troops get close enough with effective anti-tank weapons they can disable tanks.
Russia decided to send armored columns into horrible weather conditions with limited ground support. What kind of ground support soldier is going to want to trudge through freezing temps, wind, mud, snow, sludge, etc. without adequate food & clothing, only to face snipers, remote control IEDs and their only motivation is get rid on NAZIs who did nothing to provoke them? Putin made them to be canon fodder, hoping to wear down any resistance from Ukraine with an army who is not motivated.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 10:48 am
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