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re: Actor Shia LeBeouf converts to Catholicism

Posted on 8/27/22 at 3:25 am to
Posted by UGATiger26
Jacksonville, FL
Member since Dec 2009
9128 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 3:25 am to
quote:

Holy mother of hair splitting Batman…upon the criminal’s faith, he confessed his belief.


So, yes then. You're saying he had to do something. Which contradicts the notion that - once Christ has made his sacrifice - there is nothing left for us to do.

Without our acknowledgement of that loving sacrifice and our assent to God's will for us, the sacrifice is - in some sense - not enough. This is what me and Foo were going back and forth about.

Yes, it goes without question that Jesus' sacrifice is fully sufficient for our justification. The Catholic Church teaches that exact thing.

quote:

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41


The part where there seems to be confusion and disagreement is "what comes next?"

God has made his loving sacrifice. Jesus has performed his work of redemption. The path to salvation has been opened to us. Therefore....what? Basic Christian theology and logic suggests that we've been called to do something, and we have an entire New Testament of what that is. Do you deny that? Do you disagree with that? Surely, as a Christian, you do not. This is why I said in an earlier post that I find the "faith vs. works" debate to be so inanely ludicrous. It's basically us chasing our tails.

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That’s not quite what I would call “doing good works”


Then you misunderstand the whole notion of "good works."

From the Catechism (emphasis is mine):

quote:

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66


The point isn't that we have to rack up some predetermined number of good deeds by the time we die, that are being tracked by some celestial ledger, always under the obligation to "add to Christ's sacrifice" because his sacrifice "wasn't enough to save us."

That's a distortion of Catholic belief that borders on outright falsehood. Once again, of course Christ's sacrifice was sufficient.

The point is that we must cooperate with God and his will for us, which the criminal - nailed to the cross, using his dying breath - most certainly did. He did everything he could, given his unique set of circumstances, which, I would hope any Christian believes, an almighty God has the wisdom and authority to judge on a person-by-person basis.

quote:

Sure if you want to say uttering his convictions to Jesus was an action, fine…the point is when he believed and in turn spoke his faith filled words, that’s all it took.


Ah, so after all, it turns out that we do have to do some sort of work, don't we?

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? If a company calls you and offers you a job, you have to actually accept the offer to bring the offer to its fruition. You have to do something. You can't just hang up without responding, content in knowing that they offered you the job. I believe that's what Foo would call a "dead, unsaving faith."

From the Catechism:

quote:

Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42


Once we've accepted God's free offer of grace, only then can we hope to work towards good, such as the criminal's proclamation and request to Jesus which then prompted his response of "“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Even then, our work is merely the fruits of God's grace, and we could never hope to expect that our actions in this life will "be enough" to get into Heaven.

From the Catechism:

quote:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49


quote:

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.


quote:

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.


Now if you want to talk about how Catholics believe that good works are necessary for sanctification, that's a different - albeit closely related - discussion. But I'm honestly not sure how anyone could have a problem with that belief.
This post was edited on 8/27/22 at 5:28 am
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1243 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 6:42 am to
quote:

I worked at EWTN and the monastery for 8 years


quote:

I was Catholic during that time.


quote:

Catholics believe you can be saved by faith “alone”


No we don't. We believe we are saved by Grace.

quote:

also have to do works like going to mass, confession, many of the Catholic sacraments


Those aren't works. Those are sacraments, just like you said.

quote:

they don’t believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ


Yes we do.

quote:

They believe Mary had no other children when clearly the Bible states otherwise


No, it doesn't. Adelphos is the word used, just like it was used to explain Abraham and Lot as brothers, even though they were uncle and nephew.

quote:

that she was forever a virgin, never mentioned in the Bible


Where does it say she wasn't a virgin?
quote:

, that she was born without original sin which impossible for anyone other then God himself.


Adam and Eve have entered the chat.

quote:

Believe that Mary is an intercessor along with Christ…


The Catechism teaches that Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man. The Bible teaches that those in Heaven offer intercession for us (Revelation 5:8).

quote:

Trying to give God like qualities to others like Mary, the Pope or Priest in confession for forgiveness of sins.


The church doesn't teach that they have God-like qualities. Also, see John 20:23.

quote:

I studied like the Berras


Do you mean Berean? As in a form on Calvinism? You're all sorts of confused/ignorant aren't you.

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be." -Fulton Sheen
This post was edited on 8/27/22 at 6:49 am
Posted by UGATiger26
Jacksonville, FL
Member since Dec 2009
9128 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 7:17 am to
quote:

Those aren't works. Those are sacraments, just like you said.


Sure they are. It’s one of the reasons this faith vs. works debate ever began in the first place.

There is no list of officially approved acts that qualify as “good works.” The best definition is that a “good work” is a positive act of free will, made possible by God’s grace, that aligns us more closely in image of God and with his will.

A good work need not be some sort of act of physical labor like helping your neighbor lady with her garbage. Praying to God and asking for forgiveness for your sins can be a good work, as it draws us closer to God.

Now, how you can “have faith” without actually acting upon it in some way (works), I have no clue. Someone is going to have to give me an actual example of what a human life saved by “faith alone” looks like in practice. Someone tried that with the good thief crucified alongside Jesus, but even that man - as powerless and helpless as he was in that moment - actually made a positive act of free will to cooperate with God’s love for us.

Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1243 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 7:28 am to
quote:

Someone tried that with the good thief crucified alongside Jesus


The members of the 40,000 different Holy Spirit inspired Protestant faiths are quick to say that when Jesus does something, that doesn't make it the rule, but rather the exception. I wonder why we're not allowed to apply that same logic here...
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71112 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 7:31 am to
quote:

Sure they are. It’s one of the reasons this faith vs. works debate ever began in the first place.



Sacraments aren't works. They are gifts. Gifts from God to us, not vice versa.
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1243 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 7:42 am to
I think I get what he is saying, in that the intention behind willfully participating in the sacrament is a result of our unity with Christ, which is a good work flowing through us.

For example, when I was a Protestant who would sometimes attend Mass for specific events, I wanted to be anywhere else but there. So I wasn't mentally present, was filled with anger and resentment, and therefore rejected the spiritual gifts that flow from willfull participation in the sacrament. Therefore no good fruit was born on my behalf.

But yes, the sacrament in and of itself isn't a work. How we interact with that sacrament could be thought of as a work.
This post was edited on 8/27/22 at 7:44 am
Posted by UGATiger26
Jacksonville, FL
Member since Dec 2009
9128 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 7:43 am to
quote:

Sacraments aren't works. They are gifts. Gifts from God to us, not vice versa.


This is true. Perhaps it would have been more accurate of me to say that our willing participation in the sacraments is a work.
Posted by UGATiger26
Jacksonville, FL
Member since Dec 2009
9128 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 7:53 am to
quote:

I think I get what he is saying, in that the intention behind willfully participating in the sacrament is a result of our unity with Christ, which is a good work flowing through us


Posted by Zarkinletch416
Deep in the Heart of Texas
Member since Jan 2020
8689 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 8:02 am to
quote:

The Bible refers to it as “paganism.”


Go peddle your heathen deception somewhere else legion. Satan is the father of lies. You shouldn't peddle mistruth. You reveal your paternity.

For those of you who seek truth, reflect on this....

"And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it". - Matthew 16:18

Is that Biblical enough for ya? Jesus did not intend His Church should fracture into thousands of pieces (denominations). The fracturing came about because men succumbed to pride and sin. Unity is a sign of God. Disunity is a sign of the Satanic.

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Bride of Christ.

Rage on legion.




This post was edited on 8/27/22 at 9:00 am
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37461 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 8:23 am to
We hijack a thread to discuss the finer points of Christian theology. This starts with a troubled man who finds faith and meaning in the Catholic rite, a conversion that comes to him freely and by God's grace and we treat it like some kind of Fraternity Rush.

LaBeouf finds God and Jesus and we debate essentially if he chose the "right" denomination. He chose God,found God.....or whatever you want to characterize it as...God, Jesus are the important points. That was the easy part, now the real struggle begins, those demons he had do not give up so easy. In fact they will come harder now. They take particular delight in taking down those who choose God and particularly despise Christ. We should pray for him no matter what your tradition.
Posted by chambers538
Lake Charles, LA
Member since Oct 2009
640 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:04 am to
quote:

LaBeouf finds God and Jesus and we debate essentially if he chose the "right" denomination. He chose God,found God.....or whatever you want to characterize it as...God, Jesus are the important points.


I understand the point you are trying to make but as the dude would say, "that's just like, your opinion man." I don't take a side on this issue, but what I "believe" is that by taking your side, you shut down the conversation and any attempt to understand more than your opinion. Not saying I believe one path or denomination is better than the other, but I'm also not going to explicitly state that they are all the same and close myself off to other opinions and ways of understanding. Conversation is a must, that I do believe.
Posted by UGATiger26
Jacksonville, FL
Member since Dec 2009
9128 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:07 am to
quote:

LaBeouf finds God and Jesus and we debate essentially if he chose the "right" denomination. He chose God,found God.....or whatever you want to characterize it as...God, Jesus are the important points. That was the easy part, now the real struggle begins, those demons he had do not give up so easy. In fact they will come harder now. They take particular delight in taking down those who choose God and particularly despise Christ. We should pray for him no matter what your tradition.


Entirely agreed. I would’ve been happy for Shia if had converted to Anglicanism, Baptist, etc.

He has taken a step in the right direction
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
55211 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:08 am to
quote:

and we debate essentially if he chose the "right" denomination


May I remind you that the first discord that arose in this thread came from a direct, vicious and perhaps even demonic attack on the Catholic Church itself? It was not a "debate" at all - it was a vicious attack on Catholics, the Catholic Church and Catholic Theology. Not a debate.

And this vicious attack came not from out of the blue, but from a Protestant Pastor of the Reformed Presbyterian church.

Again, this Pastor didn't join the thread to debate. He came here to attack and condemn.

A few people think that they will be free to do that around here without any response to their vicious and demonic attacks on The Body of Christ. I am here to tell them that their attacks will be met with defense.

Catholic Answers website is the best resource we have to answer these demonic attacks.

LINK

Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:25 am to
quote:

FooManChoo
”My Christian sect can beat up your Christian sect!”
Posted by Lakeboy7
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2011
28324 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:28 am to
quote:

My Christian sect can beat up your Christian sect!”




My mythology sect can beat up your mythology sect
Posted by Rufus T Firefly
Member since Aug 2022
483 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:29 am to
quote:

Some of you so-called Protestants need Jesus.


Everybody needs Jesus
This post was edited on 8/27/22 at 9:29 am
Posted by EKG
Houston, TX
Member since Jun 2010
45272 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:29 am to
Facts
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37461 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:31 am to
Ehhhhh. Presbyterians. Catholics, Baptists, Orthodox. We are talking about a man who says " guess what, I found Christ or Christ woke me up one morning and rocked my world" and we are arguing about what clothes he should wear?

Don't get me wrong, I have major problems theologically with much of Protestants and enjoy the debate. But the thread was of a guy who said "hey guess what? All you religious types were right."
Posted by RollTide4Ever
Nashville
Member since Nov 2006
20083 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:41 am to
Coptic Christianity is older than Catholicism. I find organized religion suspect.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/27/22 at 9:45 am to
quote:

Catholicism is the original Christian religion.
I have absolutely nothing against Catholicism vis-à-vis other Christian sects, but this is utter nonsense.

Catholicism, like every other Christian sect, is simply a direct descendent of the original.

One could argue that many of the various Eastern sects are closer to the original, because Christianity got its start in the East, not in Rome.
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