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re: 12th Grade Girls Are Far Less Likely Than Boys To Say They Want To Get Married Someday
Posted on 1/12/26 at 1:13 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 1/12/26 at 1:13 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
What exactly do you mean when you say "the state of marriage is due to feminism..."? This seems like such a copout.
I'll do a second post on this, I think it's relevant, but is its own line of debate.
In short, because American people have been taught that the main value they bring to the world is the ability to generate money and spend money, that women, who want "freedom," that the only path to that is to be a type-A career person outside of the home. This is supported by the want of corporate America to have 2 earner households, etc. etc. It's all lined up to:
1. Delay marriage and create more needs for consumerism
2. Delay having kids
3. Focus most people on individual "fulfillment," rather than family fulfillment
Freedom, value, all of these things have been redefined in completely misaligned ways.
On that note:
quote:
Valued = respected as whole people with dignity and agency.
So when you say that this is the state of most marriages, whats your assumption on percentage of this?
You think most men in marriages don't view their wives with dignity and agency?
Agency in what terms?
quote:
I agree that marriage is more than housework and keeping kids alive. What other metrics could be used to measure or demonstrate effort and satisfaction/frustration?
Found the problem.
Marriage is not metrics. And that's why caring who does what incremental percentage of more work based on complicated ratios of "leisure" time vs. "work" time... it's all a fool's errand.
You can't "measure" marriage.
quote:
Some men are working more hours at work. A quick google search said more than a quarter (28%) of men work overtime everyday compared to 13% of women. I know this isn't a comprehensive picture, but if tis reflective of larger trends - this isn't even a third of men/husbands.
I work more than 40 hours per week, I would never say I work "Overtime." I'm a salaried employee. In my line of work, there's really no such thing as "Overtime." Again, perspectives are different in all of these cases.
But that simple Google search should still prove to you that, again, this stuff is too messy to make broad generalizations. Men typically work more overtime. Doesn't this show you that there are some imbalances that are hard to be adjusted for? And that blanket statements like "women do more chores," are just really, really complicated?
quote:
Can you provide evidence of women being valued by society in tangible ways?
I'm going to be honest first - this caring about "value," is just so misaligned.
You want a tangible way that women as a gender are viewed with dignity and agency per your previous definition? My guess is anything that I say you'll say "But men like looking at hot women, so that doesn't matter."
Or I don't really have proof at scale of either gender getting treated with dignity and agency.
The culture spent like 4 decades on the "dumb husband as comic relief" trope. And still do. So there's no dignity there at scale.
I mean, Women have a sixth sense? The view that Women are better with kids? Women makeup a larger share of college graduates?
1
Posted on 1/12/26 at 2:05 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
I'll do a second post on this, I think it's relevant, but is its own line of debate.
In short, because American people have been taught that the main value they bring to the world is the ability to generate money and spend money, that women, who want "freedom," that the only path to that is to be a type-A career person outside of the home. This is supported by the want of corporate America to have 2 earner households, etc. etc. It's all lined up to:
1. Delay marriage and create more needs for consumerism
2. Delay having kids
3. Focus most people on individual "fulfillment," rather than family fulfillment
Freedom, value, all of these things have been redefined in completely misaligned ways.
So feminism = consumerism?
Some might call this a logical product of capitalism.
quote:
So when you say that this is the state of most marriages, whats your assumption on percentage of this?
You think most men in marriages don't view their wives with dignity and agency?
Agency in what terms?
I think modern husbands do for the most part.
quote:
You can't "measure" marriage.
Can one measure satisfaction or happiness in marriage?
quote:I'll concede to this.
Google search should still prove to you that, again, this stuff is too messy to make broad generalizations.
quote:
And that blanket statements like "women do more chores," are just really, really complicated?
I will not concede to this
quote:It's not that. I have a 15 month old and finally have my pre-kids body back. Friday, I ran into an old client at work (and I work with formerly incarcerated people, some of whom lack social graces) who I hadn't seen in several months. He said "You look wonderful. WOW" when he saw me. I wasn't offended by that. People are allowed to notice what people look like and to be drawn to certain types or features or whatever.
My guess is anything that I say you'll say "But men like looking at hot women, so that doesn't matter."
he didn't tell me that and then go on a rant about how women shouldn't have the right to vote because the men who have governed the country for hundreds of years screwed it up, though.
quote:
Or I don't really have proof at scale of either gender getting treated with dignity and agency.
Maybe society or culture doesn't value either sex? We just are self-absorbed and don't value each other in general?
It seems that because men are physically stronger, they get more respect. But I'm open to the possibility that I haven't considered everything.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 2:18 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Objectify is a floating feminist signifier. It has derisive misandric connotations but limited actual meaning.
Maybe I'm reading too much into things or maybe I'm misinterpreting things but your participation in this thread makes me sad. Stuff like what is quoted above is so outrageous that it is hard to dignify it with any response at all.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 2:23 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
There were some significant moments in my life that my husband opted out of, which made me feel like all I am is a workhorse who is on call for sex in the marriage
The problem you have is that you consider sex "for him". That's not the way it should be. It's not the way it is in healthy relationships. If the woman isn't getting at least as much out of sex as the man, there's a real problem and your response shows why.
I can't say if that is your fault (it could be. your attitude towards sex could have doomed it) or your husbands fault (it could be. his lack of care for your pleasure and enjoyment). Either or both is possible.
Sex really is a requirement...but it should be so much more than that in a healthy marriage. If it really is just a requirement, I can't see a happy marriage long term.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 2:32 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
So feminism = consumerism
How the West has weaponized feminism is to use as mate suppression to drive a wedge between young women and religion. The voids left behind by taking away the community women would feel being members of a church congregation and socializing with other young mothers in their community is replaced by consumerism. The same is being done to young men. Consumerism is being used as a carrot dangled in front of the disillusioned, disaffected individuals to fill the voids in their souls lost by the deprivation of faith, social mobility, and community. As those ladders are pulled up, they contend themselves with chasing consumerism, which can never really fill the void.
I see these people at comic conventions, renaissance fairs, music festivals, hobby trade shows, etc. They all feel alone and ostracized by society, so they gather in these spaces for weirdos and misfits, but what do they actually do there? Those spaces are actually just well-disguised shopping malls filled with venders there to sell goods to those people. The attractions which once made those spaces full of people are barely there anymore. The people going just know that these spaces are where they're supposed to belong, so they show up and buy things, often completely losing the social component that the entire ritual was once designed around.
Many feminists are socialist or communist in nature. They pushed the destruction or corruption of societal institutions thinking that by depriving people of religion and third places that they could only inherently turn to the state. However, capitalism has found a way.
What we are living in is the worst version of 20th century utopianism. The communists, the fascists, and the capitalists, rather than compete with one another, merged into one authoritarian, soulless, exploitative system designed to grind away the middle class while distracting them with shiny consumerism, burgeoning debt, exploding prices in healthcare and housing, delaying or destroying their ability to reproduce through poisoned food, pricing out child rearing, and extending adolescence via ever increasing schooling requirements to achieve basic entry level work.
The middle class is being turned back into serfs, and feminism is one of the tools being deployed to help make it happen. By telling women to chase education and careers, their most valuable child-rearing ages are being forfeited to chase fleeting wealth which can barely sustain them. By telling them to shun dating and marriage until the absolute most perfect date comes along, they are essentially running out the clock on their own marriageability. At the same time, this means they spend less time actually building wealth because single households simply cannot build wealth as well as married ones. They're being indoctrinated to reject that which brings fulfillment in order to chase that which does not, then blame everyone but the people responsible when they're dissatisfied with the results. Instead, they chase more consumerist "keeping up with the Joneses" to protect their egos.
Consumerism is a trap, just like feminism, and they both are used towards the same end: keeping people trapped in debt working for corporations that are eroding their ability to achieve financial independence or reproduce.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 2:58 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
All we hear about is how awful women are here. Is that not framing women in general as toxic?
No, not in general. You forgot to include “liberal”.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 2:58 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It seems that because men are physically stronger, they get more respect. But I'm open to the possibility that I haven't considered everything.
I'm painting with a broad brush here, but anyway... What men "respect" and what women "respect" are vastly different things, therefore you're not going to get sweeping adoration from men as a gender because we don't do anything the same. Not to mention, men overwhelmingly choose to do hard jobs that the vast majority of women would never do.
Have you ever seen a woman up on a roof tacking on shingles? How about a woman on a lawn care crew? Pouring concrete? On a bucket truck working on power lines? I would bet lots of money that our local chem plants are staffed with majority males. How about the police? Firefighters? Oil rigs? Still dudes.
Women overwhelmingly still choose relational jobs like teacher, nurse, counselor, something in the beauty industry, etc.
Men and women are just different, and it will always be that way. We are meant to complement each other, not be in direct opposition. Looking for "respect" from men as a whole is just silly. The goal is to peacefully coexist and support each other. And honestly, a man going out to work every day to support his wife and children seems pretty darned respectful to me. Not sure what else you're looking for.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:13 pm to HouseMom
quote:
What men "respect" and what women "respect" are vastly different things, therefore you're not going to get sweeping adoration from men as a gender because we don't do anything the same. Not to mention, men overwhelmingly choose to do hard jobs that the vast majority of women would never do.
Men deserve more respect because they do jobs that you personally consider to be harder than jobs women do?
I taught elementary school for a while and got a concussion when a kid headbutted me. Does that meet your standard of risk required for me to be deserving of respect? This is ridiculous
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:15 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Is this a serious question? Coaching is a responsibility and an obligation. It's also voluntary. That's like me saying that helping with my daughter's Girl Scout troop is childcare. Or volunteering to teach catechism classes is childcare.
It’s hours of time during a week. Hours are finite. It’s stressful. It’s all about the kids. It certainly should count.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:17 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I taught elementary school for a while and got a concussion when a kid headbutted me
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:20 pm to Timeoday
I did the same thing Brother, i told both of my sons the same thing that would help them find an overseas bride. These American girls are worthless and hell wife agrees with me, even the fat ugly bitches think they are 10's now
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:22 pm to kingbob
quote:
How the West has weaponized feminism
I don't know what you mean when you say "feminism."
quote:
Many feminists are socialist or communist in nature
What is a feminist?
quote:Agreed. All driven by profit-seeking and greed. Which also happen to be tenets of a particular economic system.
What we are living in is the worst version of 20th century utopianism. The communists, the fascists, and the capitalists, rather than compete with one another, merged into one authoritarian, soulless, exploitative system designed to grind away the middle class while distracting them with shiny consumerism, burgeoning debt, exploding prices in healthcare and housing, delaying or destroying their ability to reproduce through poisoned food, pricing out child rearing, and extending adolescence via ever increasing schooling requirements to achieve basic entry level work.
quote:Who is telling women this? Is it possible that women understand that they will need to earn an income to support themselves and the surest way to increase that income is often through education?
By telling women to chase education and careers, their most valuable child-rearing ages are being forfeited to chase fleeting wealth which can barely sustain them.
quote:Who is telling women this? Ms. Feminism?
By telling them to shun dating and marriage until the absolute most perfect date comes along, they are essentially running out the clock on their own marriageability.
quote:Is it possible that in order to support themselves, women need to work? You're acting like women get a free place to live and free car to drive and an allowance that they are rejecting and are choosing to work 40+ hours a week instead.
They're being indoctrinated to reject that which brings fulfillment in order to chase that which does not,
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:23 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Well let's try to anchor the signifier then. What does "objectify" connote to you in a negative sense?
Objectify is a floating feminist signifier.
---
Maybe I'm reading too much into things
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:25 pm to David_DJS
quote:
Which is why cubbies has not explained what she meant, even in "for women/wives in general" terms, when she argued husbands routinely opt out really big shite.
Did she ever explain what she meant? She must have a shitty husband. Not all husbands suck.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:29 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Men deserve more respect because they do jobs that you personally consider to be harder than jobs women do?
I taught elementary school for a while and got a concussion when a kid headbutted me. Does that meet your standard of risk required for me to be deserving of respect? This is ridiculous
Nearly 5000 men die in work-related accidents every year.
About 250 women die in work-related accidents every year.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:30 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
What does "objectify" connote to you in a negative sense?
To objectify someone means to treat them as a thing or an object rather than as a whole person with feelings, a personality, and inherent worth. It reduces a person to an object to be used for extraction, typically sexual gratification.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:30 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
So feminism = consumerism?
kingbob just about crushed the response, but I'll ask the direct question:
If you aren't supporting a family, what is money for?
quote:
I think modern husbands do for the most part.
Modern husbands = 60% of them 80? 99%?
You think in all of those statistics of healthy traditional marriages that most of those women have husbands who don't see them with dignity and agency? Really?
So they are all lying to themselves?
quote:
Can one measure satisfaction or happiness in marriage?
Sure, but not with leisure time and hours worked.
And at best it's an estimation of effectiveness of marriage.
quote:
I'll concede to this.
quote:
he didn't tell me that and then go on a rant about how women shouldn't have the right to vote because the men who have governed the country for hundreds of years screwed it up, though.
The whole women shouldn't vote thing is mostly a joke, it should be either tax payers or land owners only.
quote:
Maybe society or culture doesn't value either sex? We just are self-absorbed and don't value each other in general?
See kingbob's post 100%
quote:
It seems that because men are physically stronger, they get more respect. But I'm open to the possibility that I haven't considered everything.
It's a big statement.
I mean the threat of physical danger is one of the most important mechanisms that drive nature. So yes, in a sense you are right. And there is no changing that.
Respect aside - I think "respect" and "value," are just really tough to define and articulate terms.
Correct me if I am wrong, you have this idea that men "get more acclaim," than women, maybe in all spheres, but specifically in a general. That, visibly in public, men are more valued. (And when I say value here I mean the classic sense - they are "seen" in a more positive general light?
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:31 pm to David_DJS
How many men die during childbirth every year? Do we really want to go tit for tat here?
This post was edited on 1/12/26 at 3:32 pm
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:31 pm to djsdawg
quote:
Did she ever explain what she meant? She must have a shitty husband. Not all husbands suck.
Not even in the context of women (broadly) being routinely let down by husbands. But given her concussion statement, I think we can guess what sort of things she's referring to.
Posted on 1/12/26 at 3:35 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
How many men die during childbirth every year? Do we really want to go tit for tat here?
Yeah, let's do that.
About 650 women die every year during or within 42 days of childbirth.
You still have 4000 dead women to go, and that's before we start adding military fatalities.
ETA - it's instructive that you can't even acknowledge that men do hard/dangerous things much more often than women.
This post was edited on 1/12/26 at 3:39 pm
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