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Use of Force Question for LE/Conceal Baws
Posted on 5/26/21 at 10:50 am
Posted on 5/26/21 at 10:50 am
Saw the below pop up on wbrz earlier. Apparently, the nice young man decided to walk into a couple of places in BR and told fellow restaurant and bar goers he had a bomb in the box. I don’t conceal most of the time (I don’t in a bar) but have started to recently with all the craziness. Obviously use of lethal force is last resort and results in an absolute nightmare for the person using it, right or wrong. Just curious what others think in a situation like this. Wonder what law enforcement would have done had someone smoked this guy after he said that, in defense of self and others. Obviously you better have multiple witnesses that heard him but seems like a legit UOF to me. Curious what others think?
LINK /
LINK /
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Posted on 5/26/21 at 10:59 am to BeerThirty
Enjoy your life sentence at Angola.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:06 am to BeerThirty
If it isn't an immediate threat to life and property AND you can safely get yourself out of harms way then you can't use self defense.
Stating he has a bomb hidden somewhere gives you time to leave. That's a no go for smoking him.
Stating he has a bomb hidden somewhere gives you time to leave. That's a no go for smoking him.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:12 am to BeerThirty
Ask yourself what the reasonable action would have been if he had walked in and said he had a gun or a knife in the box?
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:15 am to jaytothen
quote:
If it isn't an immediate threat to life and property AND you can safely get yourself out of harms way then you can't use self defense.
Stating he has a bomb hidden somewhere gives you time to leave. That's a no go for smoking him.
He walked in carrying the box. Drop him. If I'm on the jury I won't convict.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:23 am to jaytothen
There is no duty to retreat in Louisiana, so I don’t believe whether you could get out of danger or not is relevant to whether the use of lethal force is justified.
I think the better point is whether a reasonable person would think there’s an imminent threat to serious bodily injury or death to them or someone else. Personally, without a trigger or some other action besides just having a box sitting next to him, I wouldn’t do anything other than GTFO and call the police.
LINK
I think the better point is whether a reasonable person would think there’s an imminent threat to serious bodily injury or death to them or someone else. Personally, without a trigger or some other action besides just having a box sitting next to him, I wouldn’t do anything other than GTFO and call the police.
LINK
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:31 am to BeerThirty
If I hear the word "bomb" I'm out... I am egressing in the most expedient means possible.
Shooting him.. negative - that may not prevent bomb from detonating, in fact it may cause it.
I'd be out of there like Bo Jackson on a counter
Shooting him.. negative - that may not prevent bomb from detonating, in fact it may cause it.
I'd be out of there like Bo Jackson on a counter
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:32 am to BeerThirty
No duty to retreat as another poster mentioned. That doesn’t come into play in Louisiana, but in other states it does. Don’t think I would draw in this situation. If the guy opened a trench coat and showed a suicide vest on with trigger in hand then yes. I know it’s a little different, but if he flashes a gun, then no. If he unholsters and threatens with gun in hand, then yes. Just my two cents.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:48 am to AyyyBaw
Honestly I agree with most responses, on both sides of the shoot/dont shoot coin. I’ve heard self defense in your own home is bad as far as dealing with the courts after the fact so that situation seems 10x worse. But, Ol boy did say if he opened the box it would blow up, that makes me lean more to shoot. Especially if he is acting like he wants or makes any motion like he is going to. Like I said, I was just curious as to what others thought in this scenario, with it happening at places I go to here and there. Not one of those situations you ever think about.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 11:49 am to BeerThirty
Are you inquiring about what the law says about this situation or whether you will rot in prison. Those are two different things in this case.
I remember a case many years ago where a guy saved a cop from being murdered and his life was turned to crap by the court system. Can't remember if he was convicted.
It was something like a thug on top of a cop with a knife or maybe the cops gun. This was a long time ago before the USA turned crazy.
I remember a case many years ago where a guy saved a cop from being murdered and his life was turned to crap by the court system. Can't remember if he was convicted.
It was something like a thug on top of a cop with a knife or maybe the cops gun. This was a long time ago before the USA turned crazy.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 12:43 pm to omegaman66
I don’t even know that you rot in prison, but I think our crazy arse justice system would cost you lots of dollars to not go to prison and not pay his family a bunch of money. Me personally I would hope I could get myself and family out of the situation and to safety, but someone walking in and saying they have a bomb in a box that will blow if the lid is opened also seems like deadly force is justified if the deadly force triangle is there; Weapon, opportunity, and action.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 12:50 pm to jfw3535
Thanks for the discussion. Very insightful. Lots of good facts and knowledge in your response.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 12:52 pm to Beessnax
Only thing is if it is a pistol or a knife, it can’t hurt you until he actually gets his hand on it without multiple steps. In this situation, he flat out said if he opens the box it explodes according to the one guy in the bar. That means the bomb is already hot and only one action lights it off. My thought is if he makes any movement towards the lid it would be a good shoot.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 1:23 pm to omegaman66
I remember hearing about that incident on Greenwell Springs with the funeral procession escort. My CCW instructor on 1 renewal said the civilian used a P220 .45 to end the threat. I think it was in response to that travesty with the civil suit that followed that the Legislature passed R.S. 9:2800.19, which states:
§2800.19. Limitation of liability for use of force in defense of certain crimes
A. A person who uses reasonable and apparently necessary or deadly force or violence for the purpose of preventing a forcible offense against the person or his property in accordance with R.S. 14:19 or 20 is immune from civil action for the use of reasonable and apparently necessary or deadly force or violence.
B. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses to the defendant in any civil action if the court finds that the defendant is immune from suit in accordance with Subsection A of this Section.
The judge or jury panel deciding what is "reasonable and apparently necessary" might vary greatly from Parish to Parish. But the plaintiff has a serious downside to a frivolous suit, assuming they aren't broke.
§2800.19. Limitation of liability for use of force in defense of certain crimes
A. A person who uses reasonable and apparently necessary or deadly force or violence for the purpose of preventing a forcible offense against the person or his property in accordance with R.S. 14:19 or 20 is immune from civil action for the use of reasonable and apparently necessary or deadly force or violence.
B. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses to the defendant in any civil action if the court finds that the defendant is immune from suit in accordance with Subsection A of this Section.
The judge or jury panel deciding what is "reasonable and apparently necessary" might vary greatly from Parish to Parish. But the plaintiff has a serious downside to a frivolous suit, assuming they aren't broke.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 2:23 pm to rasczak
I'm out. I don't care what the law says, I'm leaving.
There's nothing to gain by shooting him.
There's no threat he's presenting that you eliminate by shooting him.
If he's got a gun or knife? perhaps, but there's no way to know that gunfire will eliminate the threat here.
There's nothing to gain by shooting him.
There's no threat he's presenting that you eliminate by shooting him.
If he's got a gun or knife? perhaps, but there's no way to know that gunfire will eliminate the threat here.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 3:31 pm to omegaman66
quote:
I remember a case many years ago where a guy saved a cop from being murdered and his life was turned to crap by the court system. Can't remember if he was convicted.
He shot and killed a guy that was actively engaged in a fight with a LA state trooper, and either had or was trying to get the Troopers handgun, either way the Trooper had lost control of the situation. He was not indicted for the shooting, but was sued for wrongful death by the dead man’sfamily. He was forced to defend himself at his own expense. The State Police, their union, other law enforcement organizations, the NRA, other pro firearm groups all declined to help him. This was well before all the liability insurance t hat is now available to those carry.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 3:36 pm to BeerThirty
I absolutely would not shoot in that situation.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 5:08 pm to Huntinguy
When I was in le training during my years in service, young guys would always ask instructors about different scenarios as a law enforcement officer, and most were crazy arse off the wall scenarios. This beats all of them. Crazy that it is something you might have to worry about now, being it happened in a damn restaurant I go to.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 7:36 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
I can’t say I absolutely would not, because if Ol boy says I have a bomb in this box and it detonated when I lift the lid, I’m taking his word for it. As soon as he reaches for the lid he’s getting holes poked in him. Again though, armchair quarterback me says there better be multiple witnesses that heard him say it, camera proof, etc. but I also know that your arse is grass in the court system, justified or not.
Posted on 5/26/21 at 8:44 pm to BeerThirty
You remember the crazy a-hole last year that made the bomb threats and then drove his SUV into the Hammond Target and started yelling he had a bomb?
I had just left the store with my nine year old daughter. We were in a heated discussion because I wouldn’t let her go back and look at toys before we checked out when I started seeing every cop in Hammond hauling arse down the access road. Had I allowed her to go back and look, we would’ve been standing at the self checkout closest to that door when the guy drove thru.
I was carrying that day. I’ve often thought about what I would’ve done in that split second with an a-hole jumping out of a car claiming he had a bomb with my child standing behind me while I had the ability to end it right there. It would’ve been 10 ft. Easy shot.
I bought the CHP insurance after that happened. It’s too cheap and makes too much sense not to.
I had just left the store with my nine year old daughter. We were in a heated discussion because I wouldn’t let her go back and look at toys before we checked out when I started seeing every cop in Hammond hauling arse down the access road. Had I allowed her to go back and look, we would’ve been standing at the self checkout closest to that door when the guy drove thru.
I was carrying that day. I’ve often thought about what I would’ve done in that split second with an a-hole jumping out of a car claiming he had a bomb with my child standing behind me while I had the ability to end it right there. It would’ve been 10 ft. Easy shot.
I bought the CHP insurance after that happened. It’s too cheap and makes too much sense not to.
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