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Started By
Message
re: Conceal Carry w/o a permit Bill filed today!
Posted on 2/11/16 at 11:47 am to Broke
Posted on 2/11/16 at 11:47 am to Broke
quote:
I am too. I know a whole bunch of people who I would cringe if I knew they were carrying a pistol
For every single one of you against it for this reason...
You are acting no differently than the liberals who pass laws based on emotion.
"I would cringe." "It makes me uncomfortable." "I don't want him carrying a gun."
With all due respect, frick your feelings.
I am 100% for it even though I would make less money not teaching classes. Here's why:
1. The common way of thinking is "if we allow everyone to carry without a permit, crime will increase." Well, think about the crime statistics in states that already have constitutional carry (Alaska, Montana, Arizona, Kansas, Vermont, Maine, Arkansas). Their crime rates are ALL lower than the crime rate in Louisiana.
We have one of the top 5 murder capitals in the country (New Orleans) and Baton Rouge isn't far behind. We already know what drives this crime. It is not armed good citizens.
Unless the crime rates are to exponentially increase in those other states with Constitutional Carry, take a look at this EMPIRICALLY instead of EMOTIONALLY.
2. As previously stated, if you have a felony on your record, you are ALREADY barred from even OWNING a gun. What difference would this Constitutional Carry bill make exactly? The law already says this as it's written today.
3. I can only teach students so much about shooting and self defense in a full day of class. The human brain really can only process so much information in one day anyway.
Is it good for each concealed carrier to understand the self defense laws in Louisiana? Well, yes absolutely. But these laws are constantly changing anyway. It is OUR responsibility to stay current with self defense law and make ourselves aware of these laws.
And if someone slips up and makes a mistake and breaks the law? Then punish them according to that law. All this hop-in-the-time-machine, mind-reading, catastrophic thinking must die. We can't predict the future and you have to let citizens truly be free to frick up on their own. The freedom to frick up, in my opinion, is the most fundamental freedom we have in this country. Without the freedom to own our mistakes, the government takes ownership of our ability to make smart decisions.
4. A concealed carry class is NOT a defensive shooting course. It's hard for some people to understand, but one day of shooting 36 rounds does not make you a bullseye shooter or defensive shooter.
It is not required by state law (and shouldn't be) for a person to take a full 2-day defensive shooting course. Again, this is up to the individual to become properly-trained and practice on his or her own.
And for the most part, self defense isn't all that complicated. As James Yeager says, "you just point the thing at the person and pull the thing." Sure it can get more complicated in terms of situation de-escalation or danger avoidance, but in terms of shooting a gun, it's still fundamentally the action of "point your gun at a target and pull the trigger." Simple.
5. As already stated, no would-be criminal will take a CC course, waste an entire day and hundreds of dollars learning LEGAL defense doctrine to immediately go and break the laws he/she just learned. Human minds don't work that way. This type of thinking is based 100% on emotion and is not empirically proven.
6. Being trained does not change your intent. If you're not a psycho and have no intent of hurting anyone, what difference does it make if you have a permit? If you're already a psycho who is going to go on a shooting rampage and they require a long training process to get your gun, you still get your gun in the end. Nothing changes your intent except the foundational principles your parents and peers raised you on. If you grew up in that environment, one 9 hour course isn't going to change that.
This post was edited on 2/11/16 at 3:25 pm
Posted on 2/11/16 at 11:58 am to DownSouthDave
I didn't read the whole thing so if someone has already made this point then I'm sorry for repeating.
As I understand it, we have to go to a hunter's safety course to get a hunting license. From posts I've read on here it seems that most of you agree with the idea.
Why not have something set up for this purpose? Everyone that is going to conceal carry goes to a fundamental gun safety course that teaches you how to keep the weapon in working order, which end is the business end, and the basics to laws about self defense. No permit that "allows" you to carry, just a class to teach you a little safety.
It seems like if we need a safety course when we're going to go sit in a tree where you probably won't see another human, we ought to have one if we're going to be carrying a pistol with one in the chamber through a crowd of people that my daughter may be in.
As I understand it, we have to go to a hunter's safety course to get a hunting license. From posts I've read on here it seems that most of you agree with the idea.
Why not have something set up for this purpose? Everyone that is going to conceal carry goes to a fundamental gun safety course that teaches you how to keep the weapon in working order, which end is the business end, and the basics to laws about self defense. No permit that "allows" you to carry, just a class to teach you a little safety.
It seems like if we need a safety course when we're going to go sit in a tree where you probably won't see another human, we ought to have one if we're going to be carrying a pistol with one in the chamber through a crowd of people that my daughter may be in.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 12:01 pm to LSUMurse
So you want to require a permit to purchase a firearm? That is some real progressive stuff right there. Last time I checked hunting wasn't a right protected under the constitution.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 12:09 pm to civiltiger07
I don't recall my post saying anything about purchase, hot shot. I said why is a little safety course such a bad idea if someone wants to conceal carry? Try to think about what you type next time before you type it.
To be honest, I really don't care one way or the other, I have my permit so I can carry whether they change the laws or not. Having watched some people at the ranges and classes do some rather unsafe things, it seems like a little safety course couldn't hurt.
I certainly agree with the notion that a criminal could give a shite about the law.
To be honest, I really don't care one way or the other, I have my permit so I can carry whether they change the laws or not. Having watched some people at the ranges and classes do some rather unsafe things, it seems like a little safety course couldn't hurt.
I certainly agree with the notion that a criminal could give a shite about the law.
This post was edited on 2/11/16 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 2/11/16 at 12:50 pm to Ole Geauxt
quote:I don't. I think it's a dumb bill.
Maybe I'm not understanding completely,, but, I seem to have mixed emotions about that. Do y'all?
The bill's sponsor has filed this exact same bill before. It has never made it out of committee hearings. It has never received even one vote in committee hearings.
The reason -- the Louisiana Sheriff's Association opposes this bill, and always has. It removes a valuable enforcement tool -- that of being able to take thugs carrying guns off the streets without having to wait for one of them to commit an armed robbery. murder, rape, home invasion, etc.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 1:00 pm to dawg23
If they truly are "thugs", it's likely they aren't allowed to carry firearms anyway.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but if that's the reason for this bill not passing, it's ridiculous.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but if that's the reason for this bill not passing, it's ridiculous.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 1:14 pm to Broke
quote:
I am too. I know a whole bunch of people who I would cringe if I knew they were carrying a pistol
Agreed. I think the class is good for people that have never had much experience before when it comes to guns and gives you basic understandings of what you can and can't do legally.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 1:51 pm to dawg23
quote:
the Louisiana Sheriff's Association opposes this bill, and always has.
A state-run association opposes a bill that takes power away from government and gives it BACK to citizens? Color me shocked.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 1:58 pm to bapple
quote:
You are acting no differently than the liberals who pass laws based on emotion.
I disagree
quote:
"I would cringe." "It makes me uncomfortable." "I don't want him carrying a gun."
With all due respect, frick your feelings.
Well frick you too then.
Just because we have more questions and are worried about people we know carrying guns doesn't make us raging liberals. It makes us realists because we know the fricktards who will have guns and even those who presently have guns. We haven't even said we are against the change in the law. We just have more questions.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:03 pm to DownSouthDave
quote:
If they truly are "thugs", it's likely they aren't allowed to carry firearms anyway.
Depends on how we want to define "thugs."
The sheriffs' association position is that if today, they find an 18-28 year old carrying a handgun in his waistband at 2:00 a.m. with no permit, he's probably up to no good. And he's violating a state law. He can be arrested. LEO's don't have to wait until he has robbed a liquor store or raped your wife.
Removing that statute, in the name of "constitutional carry" (which Louisiana already has by virtue of our open carry posture), means cops don't have to wait for the "thug" to commit a more serious offense.
If the thug wants to open carry, like so many of the teens on this board espouse, that's legal. If he's not a felon.
The problem is when you allow the criminals (who may not yet have been convicted of any of their many crimes, and are thus technically/legally able to carry) to hide their gun while they size up victims, you're taking a way an enforcement tool.
I don't teach classes to make a living. Probably 30-40% of my students attend on a pro bono basis. My opinions aren't based on money. I manage to get by based on my day job.
The issue of competency is secondary. I have taught CCW classes for a lot longer than anybody else on this board. The skill level of the average gun owner (especially the ones who "have been around guns all my life") is scary. But that's OK. They're fools if they carry without some reasonable level of competency. But that's mostly their problem (in criminal court & in civil court) if they accidentally shoot the wrong dude.
I just don't see the justification for making it easier for criminals to commit crimes. Let 'em open carry if they want to pack.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:07 pm to Broke
quote:
I disagree
I still haven't seen you refute anything I've said with factual information. How can you not see that your position is based completely on emotion?
quote:
and are worried about people we know carrying guns doesn't make us raging liberals.
"Worry" is an emotion. Your position is based on fear - fear of you not knowing who is carrying.
Do you know who is able and not able to carry right now? And if you depend on the government to screen people to allow them to carry, have you not seen how many times the government can screw up?
The government is just as fallible as any human being because it's run entirely by human beings. All you're doing is saying you agree with outsourcing a licensing process that isn't necessary in the first place.
If you can find me statistics on crimes committed by concealed carriers, I would be very interested to see it. And it will prove my point - that training does not change your intent. These people with licenses have squeaky clean records anyway. The chances of them committing crimes were at rock bottom in the first place. The license is just an unnecessary piece of plastic.
For true freedom you have to let EVERYONE be free, even those who make you worry. As for criminals, they break the law anyway, and will anyway, for as long as human beings exist on this planet, just like they always have.
This post was edited on 2/11/16 at 2:10 pm
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:13 pm to Broke
quote:
Just because we have more questions and are worried about people we know carrying guns doesn't make us raging liberals
thats exactly what it does, because we all know you are either as far right as you can be or as far left as you can be. Must pick a side! there is no room for people who have rational thought and can see both the good and bad in something!
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:14 pm to LSUMurse
Maybe we should take a safety class on how to speak in public. What about a tax on speaking? Essentially that is what the CCP fee is. A tax on 2nd amendment.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:19 pm to dawg23
I've spent most of my time in the past 6 years in AZ where there is no CC permit required. It's not the wild west, there aren't shootouts in the street, and, as a whole, LE (local, state, and feds) actually support carrying without a permit. Hell, I've had several AZ Rangers tell me "and armed society is a polite one" after I asked them about it.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:21 pm to Broke
quote:
Just because we have more questions and are worried about people we know carrying guns doesn't make us raging liberals
It is the same argument as "the right to feel safe". This makes no fricken sense. You being worried does not trump my rights. You would hate if I said your free speech offends me so how is this different?
This post was edited on 2/11/16 at 2:23 pm
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:27 pm to bapple
quote:
I still haven't seen you refute anything I've said with factual information. How can you not see that your position is based completely on emotion?
Of course it's emotion knucklehead
PS In full disclosure I'm also worried about my kids behind the wheel of a car because they act like fricking morons when they drive.
This post was edited on 2/11/16 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:30 pm to ChatRabbit77
quote:
It is the same argument as "the right to feel safe". This makes no fricken sense. You being worried does not trump my rights.
How far do we go then? Should we let everybody have automatic weapons? What about AT4s? I don't know the fricking answer but I got questions. I'm a little worried that you folks don't have more questions either.
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:33 pm to Broke
Maybe me and Geauxt are just older than you guys. Maybe I just saw more fricked up shite in the Army. Hell I don't know. But you can't label me as some whacko liberal when the entire fricking board knows my love of guns and of people owning guns. I've taught dozens of women to shoot and I support them carrying firearms. I support a lot of people. I just don't necessarily think I support everyone (drug dealers, gang members, etc)
Posted on 2/11/16 at 2:34 pm to dawg23
quote:
The sheriffs' association position is that if today, they find an 18-28 year old carrying a handgun in his waistband at 2:00 a.m. with no permit, he's probably up to no good.
Is this gun visible? So the Sheriff's position is that they should just be able to "find" people carrying concealed today and "arrest" them because they're "probably" up to no good?
Sounds like the Sherriff is shitting on the 4th Amendment while pissing on the 2nd.
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