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Message
re: Accidental Death @ Shooting Range...
Posted on 12/13/17 at 10:30 am to LSU316
Posted on 12/13/17 at 10:30 am to LSU316
quote:
I'll say this the most unsafe gun practices I ever see are at gun ranges. I'm shocked that no one has been killed at Precision.
Let one stovepipe happen to a girl and 9/10 the hardleg "teaching her to shoot" loses all muzzle discipline.
2
Posted on 12/13/17 at 10:47 am to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
Muzzle control! There's only three directions to point a gun, skyward, at the ground, or down range. If you're on a concrete slab, you're down to two directions.
I was in Carter's Country in Pasadena Texas and the salesman showed me a bullet hole in the ceiling that was put there by a ricochet off of the floor. The ricochet was a pistol round that was an accidental discharge. The shooter was a Pasadena cop. Fortunately, no one was injured but I would not have wanted to file that report.
Again, we don't know what happened in this incident, but if you practice good muzzle control, the number of potentially lethal scenarios goes to nearly zero. Loaded weapons in a case is one of the few exceptions and that's why most ranges do not allow weapons to be brought into the range in a case.
I was in Carter's Country in Pasadena Texas and the salesman showed me a bullet hole in the ceiling that was put there by a ricochet off of the floor. The ricochet was a pistol round that was an accidental discharge. The shooter was a Pasadena cop. Fortunately, no one was injured but I would not have wanted to file that report.
Again, we don't know what happened in this incident, but if you practice good muzzle control, the number of potentially lethal scenarios goes to nearly zero. Loaded weapons in a case is one of the few exceptions and that's why most ranges do not allow weapons to be brought into the range in a case.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 1:34 pm to Jester
Or heaven forbid she can't rack the slide on that 1911 he has her shooting and he takes the gun pulls it to his chest with finger on trigger and racks the slide all the while the barrel is pointed either at the sloot or at the guy in the next stall
Posted on 12/13/17 at 1:53 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
quote:
please explain to me how it is not then?
Posted on 12/13/17 at 1:58 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
Accidents are often caused by negligence. You're not doing anything for anybody by trying to create some magical difference.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:02 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
You're not doing anything for anybody by trying to create some magical difference.
Really? I disagree. If just 1 person happened to read my comment and later on while handling a firearm thought, "hhhmmm that dirtymike said something about negligence in this scenario causing death or injury..." and then decided to not be negligent, then I think I may have possibly did something for someone.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:11 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
Not being negligent is good. Trying to slice hairs between accidental and negligent is one of the nuttier things the gun nut crown does.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:16 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
Not being negligent is good. Trying to slice hairs between accidental and negligent is one of the nuttier things the gun nut crown does.
If we were talking about a customer at the range, I might agree. But considering this was done by an employee I would absolutely agree with negligence here. An employee does not have an excuse to point a weapon in an unsafe position.
This was certainly a fluke that someone got shot I would imagine, but none the less I don't know how an employer points a loaded weapon or weapon they aren't sure is loaded in any direction but a safe one.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:19 pm to baldona
Of course he was negligent. That doesn't mean it wasn't an accident 
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:29 pm to Jester
quote:
Let one stovepipe happen to a girl and 9/10 the hardleg "teaching her to shoot" loses all muzzle discipline.
happened to me at the basspro indoor range
the dude next to me let a round off into the floor next to my foot while he was "showing her how to shoot"
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:30 pm to AlxTgr
I see your point. I worded it wrong. My point is if there wasn't negligence there wouldn't have been an accident. Sure it was an accident, but negligence caused the accident, therefore negligence caused the death. See I can split hairs too.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:31 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
My, you have a dizzying intellect.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:32 pm to AlxTgr
quote:True.
Of course he was negligent. That doesn't mean it wasn't an accident
Not having the rifle pointed in a safe direction was negligent.
If it was one of those Remington 700 bolt action rifles that have been shown to fire w/o touching the trigger, the discharge could have been accidental.
That being said, 99.99998% of unintended discharges are negligent (ND's).
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:38 pm to AlxTgr
again please explain to me how the accident caused a death without negligence. My intellect is completely on point. I think you are mad that I'm making complete sense.
Also, I'm far from a gun nut. I own one deer rifle (that I haven't shot in over 10 years because I strictly bow hunt now) and a shotgun for duck hunting.
I apologize that I can say I am 100% certain I will never accidentally shoot someone.
Also, I'm far from a gun nut. I own one deer rifle (that I haven't shot in over 10 years because I strictly bow hunt now) and a shotgun for duck hunting.
I apologize that I can say I am 100% certain I will never accidentally shoot someone.
This post was edited on 12/13/17 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:43 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
quote:It didn't, and I never said that.
again please explain to me how the accident caused a death without negligence
quote:
I think you are mad that I'm making complete sense.
You're not paying attention at all.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 2:45 pm to dawg23
quote:Well, none of this is intentional, right?
If it was one of those Remington 700 bolt action rifles that have been shown to fire w/o touching the trigger, the discharge could have been accidental.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 3:00 pm to AlxTgr
I was offering a new category to satisfy everyone-- unintended discharge.
But I still go with ND for the 99.9999998%.
p.s. I made up that percentage. It might only be 99.9996%
But I still go with ND for the 99.9999998%.
p.s. I made up that percentage. It might only be 99.9996%
Posted on 12/13/17 at 3:02 pm to dawg23
This article is a great illustration of the misuse of language by the gun culture,
There is no such thing as a negligent discharge. Right there in the artical is,
While I suspect all negligent discharges do not occur on purpose (the opposite of accidental), if looking critically at the definition of what accidental and negligence means, you will find that in fact, accidental discharges are intentional
Some great comments by the gun folks though.
Someone might be negligent while having an accidental discharge, but I don’t agree with your assessment that there are no accidental discharges and that all are negligent. If that were the case then we should believe the liberals and scrap all guns.
There is no such thing as a negligent discharge. Right there in the artical is,
While I suspect all negligent discharges do not occur on purpose (the opposite of accidental), if looking critically at the definition of what accidental and negligence means, you will find that in fact, accidental discharges are intentional
Some great comments by the gun folks though.
quote:
I call BS on the concept of there only being negligence involved in the unintentional discharge of a firearm. We are inundated in our society with placing blame. If something happens bad, something…someone…must be at fault. This stems from trial lawyers who sue everyone for any reason and it has filtered into our daily life in such a way that most everyone has been brainwashed by media reports into believing it. I don’t buy this concept. Accidents are unintentional. It’s in the definition. The fact that you placed your finger on the trigger of a firearm does not, in itself, show negligence. It might set up a situation that leads to unintentional consequences but, then again, every act that involves any risk will do the same. Getting behind the wheel of an automobile, cooking a meal for a friend, owning a dog, operating machinery and equipment…they all involve risking unintentional consequences. Firearms are dangerous. They are supposed to be. If you believe this concept of negligence as the only reason for unintentional firearms discharges, you are setting up a situation in which the very ownership and possession of a firearm (a dangerous object) is negligent.
Someone might be negligent while having an accidental discharge, but I don’t agree with your assessment that there are no accidental discharges and that all are negligent. If that were the case then we should believe the liberals and scrap all guns.
quote:
Accident:
1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
Negligent:
1a : marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably
b : failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances
2: marked by a carelessly easy manner
Posted on 12/13/17 at 3:03 pm to dawg23
I'll add a new paragraph to all my answers and tell the court my client only had an accidental wreck, but not a negligent one.
Posted on 12/13/17 at 3:08 pm to LSU316
quote:
I'm shocked that no one has been killed at Precision.
I've been once. The guy in the next lane was fired a shotgun from his waist and it kicked back and nailed his buddy in the stomach. We let the front desk people know as we walked out
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