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Started By
Message
re: where will we get the juice for all these EVs?
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:54 pm to Mingo Was His NameO
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:54 pm to Mingo Was His NameO
quote:
Lets say this were to happen. You think you can just mosey on down to the gas station and grab a couple gallons? People were buying that shite up for no reason just a couple weeks ago. You're creating ridiculous hypotheticals like out traditional systems are perfect
It’s happened multiple times at my personal house in north la the last few years. Not some random hypothetical.
2
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:01 pm to tiger2180
quote:Do you normally drive 200+ miles per day too?
It’s happened multiple times at my personal house in north la the last few years. Not some random hypothetical
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:14 pm to tiger2180
quote:Uh, they are. Tesla, LG, and Generac (among others) sell home battery packs.
So,why aren’t companies selling large battery packs rather than NG powered generators as backup power for homes?
What oil-covered rock do you live under?
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:14 pm to Darth_Vader
TAXES
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:16 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
Then maybe you should avoid talking about the issue. More than half comes from groundwater brine vs hardrock mining and it is a preferable option not only ecologically but for speed to market. The percentage from brine is going up year after year
In 2019, 77,000 tons of lithium were produced, of which 42,000 (54.5%) were from mining operations in Australia.
That % will shift as brine technology improves and operations expand. South America has roughly 47 million tons of lithium reserves (brine) compared to Australia's 6 million tons (out of 80 million tons world wide)
The US reserves (~7 million tons) are mostly brine and as of 2019 the only US production was almost entirely from brine/salt flats in NV.
Unless there has been a dramatic shift in the last 18 months mining still produces more than brine, although the trend towards brine is accurate.
LINK
(Your post led me to become a Google expert on lithium production. Like Darth I thought all lithium came from mining. Learn something new everyday. There are some cool technologies in the works related to brine operations. One company is developing a way to shorten the process from months/years to hours.)
This post was edited on 6/13/21 at 11:39 pm
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:19 pm to tiger2180
quote:What you don't seem to get is that, while you might stop at a gas station once a week, an EV would get topped off nightly. For most owners, having less than 50% charge when you get home would be a rare occasion. If this would not be the case for you, don't buy an EV right now. It's that simple.
It’s happened multiple times at my personal house in north la the last few years. Not some random hypothetical.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:23 pm to Korkstand
quote:
What oil-covered rock do you live under?
quote:
north la
There isn’t really any oil up there. It’s more known for dry arse natural gas with crazy well pressures and shitty schools.
This post was edited on 6/13/21 at 11:23 pm
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:52 pm to Pisgah Pete
quote:For perspective, that's enough to build about 600 million EVs with current technology. We don't need that many, so we don't need that much lithium (for vehicles). In the future the best way to "mine" lithium will be to recycle old batteries since it is infinitely recyclable.
The US reserves (~7 million tons)
Posted on 6/14/21 at 12:21 am to lostinbr
quote:
EV’s don’t have to idle like an ICE, so the only loads when you’re at a full stop are your air conditioner, radio, etc.
They actually do. EV's have their own coolant systems that have to be powered as well. AC load varies considerably too, most of you have absolutely no concept of how much more powerful an average sedan's AC system compared to what's cooling your house and why it needs to be so. Someone claimed 2kW, that's laughably short of what it actually uses. Those thinking they can use an EV in the equivalent capacity to a solid residential standy by generator are laughably ignorant too.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 1:09 am to Clames
quote:Very easy to find owner testing to verify. Here is a good one.
AC load varies considerably too, most of you have absolutely no concept of how much more powerful an average sedan's AC system compared to what's cooling your house and why it needs to be so. Someone claimed 2kW, that's laughably short of what it actually uses.
quote:Care to elaborate?
Those thinking they can use an EV in the equivalent capacity to a solid residential standy by generator are laughably ignorant too.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 2:07 am to Clames
quote:
most of you have absolutely no concept of how much more powerful an average sedan's AC system compared to what's cooling your house and why it needs to be so. Someone claimed 2kW, that's laughably short of what it actually uses.
Well, let's explore that. The average large sedan/mid SUV will have a max cooling capacity of around 60,000 BTU (5 tons). To get some idea about what kind of cooling you get at 2kw let's look at the average not very efficient window unit. A random *120v 15,000 BTU window unit runs on a NEMA 5-15 plug and has a rated draw of 11.8 amps (obviously excluding the massive in-rush). 11.8 amps @ 120v is 1,416 watts so 2kW should produce ~21,000 BTU in a very average efficiency A/C unit. Now, this is 1/3rd of max capacity of a car AC system but I think it is fair to say that after the initial pulldown you would not be using more than a ton and a half of AC capacity to hold the temp. I think it is perfectly reasonable to conclude the 2kW figure Tesla touts is an objectively reasonable average load over trips of any reasonable distance, even in very hot ambient temps. That being said very short trips and long cabin heat soaks would definitely significantly increase the energy usage to pull down the cabin temp over and over. This is not factoring in Telsa cabin overheat protection as I don't think it is very germane to the topic.
* LG windown unit specs
This post was edited on 6/14/21 at 2:08 am
Posted on 6/14/21 at 3:54 am to yellowfin
quote:
I don’t know
I’m not in that business, but it sounds like there’s lots of money to be made so I may look at some good companies to invest in
Posted on 6/14/21 at 4:29 am to Obtuse1
quote:
Now, this is 1/3rd of max capacity of a car AC system but I think it is fair to say that after the initial pulldown you would not be using more than a ton and a half of AC capacity to hold the temp.
And you would be wrong.
As an experiment I tried cooling an Avalanche with a window unit when parked on jobsites for 12 hours per day. (Figured I'd save some gas along with wear and tear/oil changes from idling all day) Experiment lasted about 4 hours as the window unit could not cool the cab below 83 degrees on a 90 degree day. The Avalanche likely has less window area than a typical car as the rear window is both small and shaded as it is inset, so it doesn't generally receive direct sunlight.
*With the rear fold down seat opening into the box, this experiment was made possible. I didn't hang it out a side window as I'm sure there is a meme of)
And a window AC unit is not what most think of when comparing a EV's energy use to cooling a home. Is that what Tesla, or anyone else, is comparing energy use against?
eta-How powerful are automotive air conditioners? Most sedans have air conditioning systems that can approach 40,000 BTU (3.3 Tons) in capacity. A typical 3,000 square foot house can easily be cooled by a 36,000 BTU (3 Ton) system. Cars need massive cooling capacity in order to quickly bring down the interior temperatures on hot days (easily 130 degrees F) to comfortable levels (70-75 degrees F) in a few minutes. Houses, on the other hand, only need to handle temperature variations of about 15 degrees.
LINK
This post was edited on 6/14/21 at 5:20 am
Posted on 6/14/21 at 5:05 am to Darth_Vader
The same place we get it now.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 6:06 am to lostinbr
Thanks...
AC was my primary concern - hence my choice of July lol.
The portability of gasoline - whether stuck in traffic or the boonies - is a plus to me
AC was my primary concern - hence my choice of July lol.
The portability of gasoline - whether stuck in traffic or the boonies - is a plus to me
Posted on 6/14/21 at 7:42 am to Adam Banks
quote:
Makes you wonder why the politicians keep incentivizing electric cars.
Don’t look for a conspiracy everywhere; it’s obvious why: In an effort to reduce carbon emissions they’d like everyone to drive electric so that the power can be generated using low carbon emission methods.
It might be bad policy; it might be dominated by crooked deals, like most things our government does; but it’s very clear why they are doing it.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 7:57 am to Clames
quote:
They actually do. EV's have their own coolant systems that have to be powered as well. AC load varies considerably too, most of you have absolutely no concept of how much more powerful an average sedan's AC system compared to what's cooling your house and why it needs to be so. Someone claimed 2kW, that's laughably short of what it actually uses. Those thinking they can use an EV in the equivalent capacity to a solid residential standy by generator are laughably ignorant too.
I was responding to a post about the risk of an EV dying during a 2 hour traffic jam.
With everything you just said, how long do you think an EV with a 75-100 kWh battery will run, stopped with the AC on, on a hot day?
As for the piece about powering your home from an EV - that started as a comparison to point out just how much storage capacity these batteries have. I think a couple of folks went overboard on that comparison, and you definitely get into the realm of the theoretical when you start talking about home batteries supplementing the grid.
That said, I don’t think anyone implied (or meant to imply) that a car battery is a suitable substitute for a Generac.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 10:07 am to BuckyCheese
quote:How did you seal around the unit? You probably should have hung it out a side window.
As an experiment I tried cooling an Avalanche with a window unit when parked on jobsites for 12 hours per day. (Figured I'd save some gas along with wear and tear/oil changes from idling all day) Experiment lasted about 4 hours as the window unit could not cool the cab below 83 degrees on a 90 degree day. The Avalanche likely has less window area than a typical car as the rear window is both small and shaded as it is inset, so it doesn't generally receive direct sunlight.
*With the rear fold down seat opening into the box, this experiment was made possible. I didn't hang it out a side window as I'm sure there is a meme of)
quote:Right, and once the temp comes down the power required to keep it there drops drastically. This jives with Tesla owner tests which show about 5kw to draw down the temp and then 1-2kw to maintain.
eta-How powerful are automotive air conditioners? Most sedans have air conditioning systems that can approach 40,000 BTU (3.3 Tons) in capacity. A typical 3,000 square foot house can easily be cooled by a 36,000 BTU (3 Ton) system. Cars need massive cooling capacity in order to quickly bring down the interior temperatures on hot days (easily 130 degrees F) to comfortable levels (70-75 degrees F) in a few minutes.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 10:09 am to lostinbr
quote:Actually Ford is marketing exactly that as a feature. It will essentially work like the home battery packs that several companies sell (Generac is one of them).
As for the piece about powering your home from an EV - that started as a comparison to point out just how much storage capacity these batteries have. I think a couple of folks went overboard on that comparison, and you definitely get into the realm of the theoretical when you start talking about home batteries supplementing the grid.
That said, I don’t think anyone implied (or meant to imply) that a car battery is a suitable substitute for a Generac.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 10:42 am to Korkstand
quote:
(Generac is one of them).
I just wish they had bought a better invertor company when they went into that side of the business.
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