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re: What was the country’s reaction to the 1993 Waco siege when that was going on?
Posted on 3/26/23 at 7:13 pm to Byrdybyrd05
Posted on 3/26/23 at 7:13 pm to Byrdybyrd05
quote:
I was in first grade when that happened and I didn’t know anything about it until the Oklahoma City bombing. I remember when that happened and seeing everything on the news how terrible it was, especially, the daycare being hit in the building. I just saw the new Netflix documentary Waco American Apocalypse and I was thinking what was the country’s reaction to the 1993 Waco compound shootout with the stand-off until the compound burned down with the people still inside?
Well, in 1995, PBS Frontline ran a piece that was quite critical of the governments poorly thought out and orchestrated operation, if that tells you anything.
This post was edited on 3/26/23 at 10:31 pm
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Posted on 3/26/23 at 7:22 pm to SpringBokCock
quote:
At that time, the country was more unified. Rush and GG Liddy were in their prime, but Fox News wasn't created until 3 years later and there was no social media, so the schism in the conservative movement had not yet happened. Waco was red meat to Rush and, especially, Liddy, so it did create some energy and accelerated the growth of the tea party/freedom caucus movement.
We didn't have TV growing up but we did have the radio. Most of what I remember about the events at Waco came from those two sources. Liddy had a particular hatred for the ATF and the FBI director at the time who I believe was Louis Free(sp). In fact he got in some water for saying to aim for the head of ATF agents because they wore body armor.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 7:29 pm to SpringBokCock
quote:
"Could" doesn't mean did. The Branch Davidians were a doomsday cult. They set the fires to end it after they took out as many ATF agents as they could and knew it was the end.
They didn’t try and take out any ATF agents at the end since it was the FBI that did the seige.
The FBI for 6 years lied about using anything that could start a fire. They finally admitted after 6 years they did use canisters that could have started a fire. That’s pretty bad for a government agency even if they didn’t start the fire.
They also lied to Janet Reno about the effects of CS gas on young children from a known study that basically lied about the effects. They used all of the CS gas they were supposed to use for multiple days in just a few hours. They told Reno their plan was to slowly put CS gas on one side of the building and slowly push the davidians to the other side over days, we all know from video that was a lie. The use of tanks to crush the building led to trapping the women and the children with them in the bunker room. They dumped so much gas in the bunker that some of the small kids broke their backs from seizures due to the gas because gas masks didn’t fit their faces. When they broke the concrete wall into the bunker, they crushed a few people with that wall. Yeah the evil cult totally was the bad guys in this faceoff.
This post was edited on 3/26/23 at 7:32 pm
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:05 pm to stout
quote:
WTF are you talking about? Why are you such a drama queen all of the time?
Hey pot - nice to meet you! quote:For all the Waco hand-wringing threads, there is barely any mention of the ravenous pedophilia practiced by the cult.
No one is fine with Koresh and no one here doubts he harmed kids.
quote:The govt might have messed up, but the Davidians started the fire.
But one can reason that Koresh was a psycho and that the Government messed up and their intervention ultimately lead to over 80 unnecessary deaths. Both can be true. Only you seem to want to make it one or the other.
quote:I'm not sure what that changes. He was a pedophilic monster entrapping molested children - something this board likes to act like it cares about.
FYI, the initial raid wasn't even about any allegations concerning kids. That was only put out when the siege went on for weeks and weeks to paint Koresh as even more of a monster. The initial warrant was over modified weapons and them having 1.6 million rounds of ammo.
Do I want the FBI to be better? Yep. Am I surprised at general incompetence? Nope.
But all the adults in there were to some degree complicit in the pedophilic cult. When the "circumstances" are different and bad actors get worse punishment than they might, the board loves to say shite like "not losing any sleep, no chance they were going to be productive members of society anyway".
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:19 pm to LRB1967
quote:
A lot of people were horrified
I don't think they were. People like you and me were horrified (like with Ruby Ridge), but most of the populace sorta shrugged.
quote:
Sixth Amendment
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
So, I'm not surprised that people have been in prison for two years without trial in nearly every case.
Same shite, different decade. Government rulez.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:48 pm to LemmyLives
quote:
I don't think they were. People like you and me were horrified (like with Ruby Ridge), but most of the populace sorta shrugged.
This is my shrug- you live by a doomsday cult; you die by a doomsday cult. Sure there were children that did not chose it. Then again there have been innumerable children throughout history that have been killed because their parents chose a way of life for them.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:51 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
The government screwed the pooch on that one.
That’s the government’s modus operandi. When all else fails, just kill em and then lie about it.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:52 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
I'm not sure what that changes. He was a pedophilic monster entrapping molested children
Because neither of those government agencies enforces those laws. They were there over semi automatic guns being turned into automatic guns and possible grenades. Using it as propaganda to justify their actions is meaningless. They weren’t there for that. The ATF was there to justify their existence and the FBI followed it up because you can’t screw with federal agents. Neither of those two organizations gave a single shite about those children with the exception of the FBI negotiators that got fricked over every chance the HRT team could do it. Talking about the children is deflecting from what actually happened from this event.
Koresh was a horrible individual when it comes to his followers and their children, everyone acknowledges this, it’s a moot point and has little to do with what went down there. That subject is used to deflect valid criticism of the US government.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:54 pm to Byrdybyrd05
At 23, young and dumb, I realized the the government was not "for the people". I also started seeing the media distort things, unfortunately it has spiraled downward from there.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 8:56 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
ravenous pedophilia practiced by the cult.
Burn the Catholic church to the ground then.
And most of Central America.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:10 pm to DaleGribble
quote:
Around the same time as all of this was happening, I can remember "Militias" in places like Michigan being a really hot topic on the news.
Between this and Ruby Ridge, it seemed like the govt was turning on it's citizens. But it was before internet/social media, so it's hard to get a read on what the entire country was feeling.
On a personal level, I was disgusted and outraged. Still am. Those kids didn't have to die.
quote:
DaleGribble
Name checks out.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:10 pm to MadDogs
quote:
We didn't have TV growing up but we did have the radio. Most of what I remember about the events at Waco came from those two sources. Liddy had a particular hatred for the ATF and the FBI director at the time who I believe was Louis Free(sp).
My dad listened to AM radio all the time. He always had Rush and Liddy on. Sometimes he listened to Ollie North (who had his own show for a little while as well).
Liddy hated the ATF, as you said. He was always talking shite and saying "aim for the head when they come inside your house." Looking back on it, it was pretty wild. I doubt any mainstream host would get away with saying that kind of thing now. (His show was nationally syndicated, so it's not like he was some shortwave guy or something).
Liddy was one of the Watergate burglars and would discuss it sometimes. However, he never really went into what it was all about or why they did it. He died in 2021 and went to his grave never revealing any motives or what they were looking for.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:15 pm to AUstar
quote:
Liddy hated the ATF, as you said. He was always talking shite and saying "aim for the head when they come inside your house." Looking back on it, it was pretty wild
I think the opposite. Back then, it seemed weird when the NRA called BATFE "jackbooted thugs." Now? I suspect they have been for decades. My opinion swung wildly after I watched how they treated IEF vets that sought mental health treatment in 03ish.
For the record, I don't own any guns, they were lost in the boating accident.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:15 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
Pretty sure it was started by tear gas canisters or something like that fired in, and there were ample other examples of fires being started from them the government had.
The "something like that" was a chemical weapon that caused such violent contortions that a lot of the kids that were gassed had broken backs before the gas killed them.
ETA It was this part of that Rules of Engagement doc from the 90s that was the most heartbreaking/infuriating.
Why are we so focused on fires?
This post was edited on 3/26/23 at 9:22 pm
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:19 pm to DaleGribble
quote:
such violent contortions that a lot of the kids' that were gassed had broken backs before the gas killed them.
Tear gas usually involves copious amounts of snot and tears, not broken backs, but I like where you're generally going, you hippie.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:25 pm to LemmyLives
quote:
Tear gas usually involves copious amounts of snot and tears, not broken backs, but I like where you're generally going, you hippie.
It obviously wasn't tear gas. It's been at least 25 years since I watched the documentary, but they covered this In the Rules Of Engagement doc, if not any of the others.
I haven't seen any of the others, so I don't have a clue if it was mentioned, or if they made it sound like the kids just burned in the fire.
They didn't.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:35 pm to fallguy_1978
The video is getting hard to find, but a then little known reporter from Austin named Alex Jones interviewed a young Timmothy McVeigh right outside the perimeter.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:35 pm to LemmyLives
quote:
Tear gas usually involves copious amounts of snot and tears, not broken backs, but I like where you're generally going, you hippie.
There isn’t much study done on children and how it affects them thankfully. They were in an enclosed space with little ventilation and had way more CS gas inserted than should have ever been inserted. Some of the kids had seizures from the environment which led to broken backs. shite is banned on the battlefield, yet we keep letting our jackbooted thugs use it on the public.
It’s was also nice of the FBI to collapse the a wall of concrete bunker to insert all this gas and kill several women and children in there with concrete wall. Excellent protection of children. Oh yeah the tank pushed so much debris against the door to get out of the bunker that the kids and women had no escape. So much protection of the kids.
This post was edited on 3/26/23 at 9:43 pm
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:39 pm to stout
quote:
There was no social media or citizen journalism back then to have an open dialogue so the country bought the narratives fed to them by the MSM which was they were a cult and terrorist.
This is true. After watching documentaries on Waco now, my only issue with them is the Koresh was screwing 12-13 year olds. Everything else is their business.
Posted on 3/26/23 at 9:40 pm to Byrdybyrd05
On one hand, I was very anti-government as a teen and early 20s. I was 19 during Waco and recall assuming it was government overreach. But I also was very anti-cult. So I sort of got pissed at the feds and remember Rush covering it closely. But then meh. Wackos in Waco.
Having since learned more of the story and watching the US version of gestapo/ss/KGB etc gain power over the past 30 years, I would like to read more righteous outrage into my 19yo self’s reaction.
Having since learned more of the story and watching the US version of gestapo/ss/KGB etc gain power over the past 30 years, I would like to read more righteous outrage into my 19yo self’s reaction.
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