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re: Were the LRRP teams in Vietnam the biggest badasses the US military ever produced?
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:26 am to grizzlylongcut
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:26 am to grizzlylongcut
HCM trail was hard to disrupt for a few reasons.
Single biggest one is that trying to use the kind of shite that destroys runways and roads doesn’t do much to deter a bunch of assholes on bicycles or leading caravans of yaks.
IOW, we used a lot of high cost ordinance to do little to no damage to their supply infrastructure.
Single biggest one is that trying to use the kind of shite that destroys runways and roads doesn’t do much to deter a bunch of assholes on bicycles or leading caravans of yaks.
IOW, we used a lot of high cost ordinance to do little to no damage to their supply infrastructure.
1
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:29 am to jdd48
quote:
Tunnel rats were just as fearless if not more so.
This. A friend was a tunnel rat and he's one wiry little son of a bitch I would not mess with.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:32 am to teke184
quote:
Single biggest one is that trying to use the kind of shite that destroys runways and roads doesn’t do much to deter a bunch of a-holes on bicycles or leading caravans of yaks.
the NVA was ingenious, (and had no problem with employing slave labor,) at camouflaging trucks and other equipment, and rapidly repairing bomb damage of roads, bridges, etc., they would even build bridges that were slightly below the water line to try and disguise them from aerial view
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:47 am to grizzlylongcut
I think that this was the only serious effort to cut the HCM Trail using conventional forces. POTUS Nixon approved the operation into Laos in 1971.
LINK
LINK
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:50 am to Champagne
quote:
I think that this was the only serious effort to cut the HCM Trail using conventional forces.
it was a daily effort to slow down the supply chain, severely hamstrung by weather and political policy, that, and the CIA was more interested in gathering intel on the Rooskies new equipment and technology that they were supplying to NVN
This post was edited on 4/19/23 at 8:51 am
Posted on 4/19/23 at 8:59 am to jbird7
Tiger The LRRP Dog
Posted on 4/19/23 at 9:10 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
we did actually win the Vietnam War. We won it in January 1973.
Before that the US and ARVN demolished the Viet Cong and a good portion of the PAVN during the Tet Offensive in 1968. LBJ did not follow through on that success perhaps in part by Walter Cronkite's solemn assertion that the war could not be won.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 9:25 am to blueridgeTiger
LBJ and the “whiz kids” fricked the war effort up through a number of ways.
LBJ in particular did so by trying to fight Vietnam on the cheap so he could still fund the Great Society programs. It just brought things to a slow boil instead of winning, coming home, and taking the pressure off about the draft and so forth.
LBJ in particular did so by trying to fight Vietnam on the cheap so he could still fund the Great Society programs. It just brought things to a slow boil instead of winning, coming home, and taking the pressure off about the draft and so forth.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 9:54 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
the teams that went into Laos and Cambodia with minimal arse, gear, and a shitload of ammo
One of those old baws lived off of Coursey. He went to Istrouma.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 9:57 am to 777Tiger
just wanted to jump in on this thread, as Vietnam is one of my favorite historical topics. i will throw my unsolicited advice out there for those of you interested in reading about the LRRP and SOG programs, what they did and why, and things about the Ho Chi Minh Trail, Cambodia, Laos, etc - you REALLY need to read at least one or two books that take a holistic look at the politics of the war and the strategic decisions being made. stories at the tactical level about firefights and snoopin' and poopin' are fun to read and definitely interesting, but it adds an entire additional layer of context and understanding when you read about the high level actions first and understand those.
a few good books i would recommend if anyone is interested:
Bright Shining Lie - Sheehan
The Best and Brightest - Halberstam
Vietnam: A History - Karnow
And if you REALLY want to get into the "why" of us being in Vietnam to begin with, you should read a little about the French in Vietnam first. Embers of War by Logevall is a great French war in Indochina primer
anyways, carry on - great thread
a few good books i would recommend if anyone is interested:
Bright Shining Lie - Sheehan
The Best and Brightest - Halberstam
Vietnam: A History - Karnow
And if you REALLY want to get into the "why" of us being in Vietnam to begin with, you should read a little about the French in Vietnam first. Embers of War by Logevall is a great French war in Indochina primer
anyways, carry on - great thread
This post was edited on 4/19/23 at 9:58 am
Posted on 4/19/23 at 10:03 am to Northshore Aggie
Consider finding some stuff by Dr Andrew Wiest as well, who is a well known historian who has covered a lot on the war.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 10:03 am to grizzlylongcut
I'm not qualified to say who is "most bad arse" but one thing I always found interesting to read about going on in Vietnam is the Recondo school that Westmoreland set up. To complete the school you had to do an actual combat patrol: "three weeks in length with 260 hours of classroom and field instruction that required a high level of physical fitness, knowledge of patrolling techniques, first aid, land navigation, radio procedures, and weapons familiarity, and concluded with an actual combat patrol to demonstrate the students' skills."
Posted on 4/19/23 at 10:04 am to jbird7
quote:
Any particular books you recommend? I’m in need of a new book and Vietnam is something I’m not to familiar with but would like to be.
Tagging along with this. As I read OP, I have no idea what he was talking about and would like to read more
Posted on 4/19/23 at 10:08 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
Eta: which leads me to a question. We know that the Ho Chi Minh trail was going through those two “neutral” countries, why did we not go in heavier there? I’m not as well brushed up on that point of Vietnam as others, so elucidate the facts from that for me, please.
Politics.
This post was edited on 4/19/23 at 10:09 am
Posted on 4/19/23 at 10:08 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
all US aid to South Vietnam was ended shortly after.
Stopping military aid to a treat partner so they can defend their border against a Russian proxy?
How un-American.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 10:17 am to Lsutigerturner
quote:
The disbanding of LRRP, and more recently LRS are apart of some of the the biggest mistakes the military has ever made imo.
The loss of knowledge from SME for each unit is disgusting. The everyday common practices is completely lost to everyday units reconnaissance, squads and teams are having to relearn and get ahold of old and discontinued TM/FM to find the unwritten sub tasks needed every day.
The military deciding to not keep at least one LRS, or pathfinder unit active is a tragedy and all the knowledge will soon be gone. Some recon and SCT platoons have begun attempting to relearn and stand up capable teams but there is just no knowledge there it’s retired or getting ready to retire.
I mean, is Force Recon not a thing in the USMC anymore? Doesn't the 75th Ranger Regiment have an actual recon company? And one of the biggest jobs that the special operators across each branch have is reconnaissance.
I don't know that it's necessarily a lost art considering the regular line units can be taught how to do those things if need be by the people that are tasked with that specifically.
And technology has changed reconnaissance big time, can't discount how far technology has come in the last 100 years.
This post was edited on 4/19/23 at 10:35 am
Posted on 4/19/23 at 12:59 pm to 777Tiger
Yes, I think in large part, we've covered the reasons why the USA was too incompetent to actually block the enemy supply lines, which is probably the most basic military axiom of all time - but it was too sophisticated a concept for Old Uncle Sam to figure out. The reasons are: 1) the USA would rather waste money and lives trying to block the trails with B52 bombs and 8-man recon squads - which didn't work. 2) the USA was too stupid or just plain uninterested in winning and would never commit a large US military conventional ground force to the "neutral" territory to block the supply line. Which, by the way, was also stupid because even under International Law at the time neither Laos nor Cambodia qualified as "Neutral" nations, since North Vietnam had already CONQUERED both countries and were using the geography of both conquered nations to prosecute war on South Vietnam.
But all of this was too hard for Old Uncle Sam to figure out, so he decided to expend blood and treasure for a decade fighting a war but not trying to win said war.
Oh well. All I can say is: It Figures. The US military forces actually doing the fighting were MAGNIFICENT and everything that I have read about the Vietnam War supports that conclusion. They were magnificent fighting men and I will always admire them. I'm sorry that Uncle Sam let them down.
But all of this was too hard for Old Uncle Sam to figure out, so he decided to expend blood and treasure for a decade fighting a war but not trying to win said war.
Oh well. All I can say is: It Figures. The US military forces actually doing the fighting were MAGNIFICENT and everything that I have read about the Vietnam War supports that conclusion. They were magnificent fighting men and I will always admire them. I'm sorry that Uncle Sam let them down.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 1:05 pm to jdd48
quote:
Tunnel rats were just as fearless if not more so.
A friend of my fathers was one. I heard him tell a story about the time he went into a tunnel that opened into a room full of stored supplies, and 4 VC. He ran out of bullets for his pistol and killed the last VC with a tree root. Beat the man to death with a root.
He was shot 3 times and still killed the dude and crawled back out of that hole.
He drank a lot and when he was drunk was the scariest, meanest, most violent man I have ever known. He met a lady who became his wife, found Jesus and is now very plesant to be around.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 1:11 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
ean, is Force Recon not a thing in the USMC anymore?
Absolutely Marine Force Recon (FORECON) is in use now.
Posted on 4/19/23 at 1:12 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
Their stories are just absolutely wild.
Ex father in law was a Captain with the !st SF group out of Okinawa. He did three tours and was shot on two of those tours. In the late 80s I read a story on nuclear backpacks coming out. Only story he ever told me was when I mentioned the backpacks....He said they were avaiable during Vietnam and teams would try to see how far into Laos and Cambodia they could go while carrying them. Just testing the waters so to speak.
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