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Started By
Message
re: Unions are outdated. It is 2023 not 1923
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:11 am to Death Before Disco
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:11 am to Death Before Disco
quote:
This is gonna be a fun thread.
and an original one, we've never discussed this before, ever!
0
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:12 am to LSUTitan99
I agree with every word you said
But I also look at this graph…
…(which is corporate profits as a percent of GDP)… and I look at this graph… 
…(which is inflation adjusted income broken up by quintile)…and I am forced to consider what other solutions there are. Something about our economic system is fundamentally is broken when corporate profits are growing from 1% of gdp to 15%, while at the same time, the middle income quintile and below has seen functionally no real income growth at all.
I agree that unions aren’t the correct answer, for all the reasons you outlined above. But the status quo isn’t acceptable either. And absent a compelling alternative finally getting proposed, at the least, the recent push for more Union activity isn’t surprising to me. Workers are desperate to find a way to stay afloat, even if that means turning to corrupt institutions to try and get help. And the shite flows downstream from there.
But I also look at this graph…
…(which is corporate profits as a percent of GDP)… and I look at this graph… …(which is inflation adjusted income broken up by quintile)…and I am forced to consider what other solutions there are. Something about our economic system is fundamentally is broken when corporate profits are growing from 1% of gdp to 15%, while at the same time, the middle income quintile and below has seen functionally no real income growth at all. I agree that unions aren’t the correct answer, for all the reasons you outlined above. But the status quo isn’t acceptable either. And absent a compelling alternative finally getting proposed, at the least, the recent push for more Union activity isn’t surprising to me. Workers are desperate to find a way to stay afloat, even if that means turning to corrupt institutions to try and get help. And the shite flows downstream from there.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:15 am to LSUTitan99
I deal with union negotiations a bit as well. The real issue with most them is that the incremental raises they get their members are usually netted out by their union dues. Rarely is the bottom line raise meaningful on a regular basis.
The other two big issues you pointed out. They can cripple a business' growth opportunity, not just from a cost perspective, but in equal parts from a time and energy perspective. And they truly do protect shitty employees while lowering the ceiling for great ones.
All that to be said, they provide job and income security for their members so I see the appeal.
The other two big issues you pointed out. They can cripple a business' growth opportunity, not just from a cost perspective, but in equal parts from a time and energy perspective. And they truly do protect shitty employees while lowering the ceiling for great ones.
All that to be said, they provide job and income security for their members so I see the appeal.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:18 am to HubbaBubba
quote:
Without a union, please explain how employees speak up in unison to let a company know they are tone deaf and overworking their staff?
You work from home you fricking baby.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:18 am to LSUTitan99
Conservative Populism solves the unions/cheap labor by various means conundrum.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:20 am to LSUTitan99
I am not a fan of unions but I hate the "It's the current year" form of arguments. It is beyond fricking lazy and one of the reasons that I hate that antler-mouthed frickface John Oliver.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:27 am to funnystuff
80% of voters go to the polls for 2 issues, neither neither side wants to solve it for all the money it garners them.
If you want to solve a problem you must first ask the real questions instead of distractions with no actual solutions.
A simple question (before guns or abortion) should be is the buying power of the US citizen stable or rising over time?
What started in the 60's and 70's went exponential in the 80's forward.
If minimum wages are raised 10% but goods go up 20% the citizens are losing ground, not gaining it. Since the 80's and the "greed is good" mantra this has accelerated. I favor local and regional ownership with stockholders being average citizens and companies who actually do something.
I do not favor Wall Street padding their pockets looting US companies and making paper profits for themselves while not actually building long term US companies.
If you want to solve a problem you must first ask the real questions instead of distractions with no actual solutions.
A simple question (before guns or abortion) should be is the buying power of the US citizen stable or rising over time?
What started in the 60's and 70's went exponential in the 80's forward.
If minimum wages are raised 10% but goods go up 20% the citizens are losing ground, not gaining it. Since the 80's and the "greed is good" mantra this has accelerated. I favor local and regional ownership with stockholders being average citizens and companies who actually do something.
I do not favor Wall Street padding their pockets looting US companies and making paper profits for themselves while not actually building long term US companies.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:30 am to LSUTitan99
Unions are the reason you get weekends off.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:34 am to HubbaBubba
quote:
Without a union, please explain how employees speak up in unison to let a company know they are tone deaf and overworking their staff?
They don't. That'd kinda the point.
When you retire, they won't replace you. They'll split up your responsibilities among 2 or 3 other employees and fire the one who fricks up the most.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:35 am to LSUTitan99
well said.
I have had a few clients that are unionized and the union is actually helpful in weeding out bad employees. Usually, these are companies that work in a dangerous business and, for safety reasons, the union employees don't want to work around employees who are incompetent.
ETA: In the late 80's, I represented a unionized plant. The contract wages were significantly less than what was paid at other local plants (which were non-unionized). So, the plant had a poor quality labor pool. The plant manager was instrumental in getting higher contract wages because he wanted a better plant labor force.
I have had a few clients that are unionized and the union is actually helpful in weeding out bad employees. Usually, these are companies that work in a dangerous business and, for safety reasons, the union employees don't want to work around employees who are incompetent.
ETA: In the late 80's, I represented a unionized plant. The contract wages were significantly less than what was paid at other local plants (which were non-unionized). So, the plant had a poor quality labor pool. The plant manager was instrumental in getting higher contract wages because he wanted a better plant labor force.
This post was edited on 9/14/23 at 8:48 am
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:41 am to Buck_Rogers
quote:
Thomas Jefferson warned about "monied corporations" controlling America. Unions are a necessary evil to combat this. There are strength in numbers (whether it be a group of workers or a few corporations that basically have a monopoly on a certain industry), and that is the whole idea.
Might be the whole idea but Unions have overstepped their bounds. They no longer make sure the average employee is treated fairly. They make sure the worst employee can't get fired for literally sleeping on the job. They make sure the good employee doesn't get a raise because that would be unfair to the worst employee.
In some rare instances, unions might actually help like the writers and actors strike. But by and large, they do nothing but make the work place worse for people actually trying to do their jobs.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:44 am to WavinWilly
quote:
ETA: as the FTC increasingly refuses to regulate monopolies and pseudo-monopolies I think people are going to start thinking about unions again. If the FTC did its job effectively and efficiently ( ) a lot of unions might not be necessary because of healthy competition.
This is the most antagonistic FTC in decades. Lina Khan is a aggressive to a point of recklessness. She is going after antitrust cases that fly well below the HSR requirements and impact immaterial populations, in addition to quickly ramping up her efforts against the real big companies, especially in healthcare and tech.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:47 am to dgnx6
quote:
You work from home you fricking baby.
I work in about 100 different locations a year in the US and 15-25 different cities in 7-10 other countries a year. I fly out to aircraft carriers and sometimes don't sleep for two days. Yeah, I'm a real fricking slacker.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:57 am to Bert Macklin FBI
You are generalizing that all unions are the same. Some have their place and do a lot of good for their brothers. Others not so much. The same can be said for many things.
This post was edited on 9/14/23 at 8:58 am
Posted on 9/14/23 at 8:58 am to Buck_Rogers
quote:
You are generalizing that all unions are the same. Some have their place and do a lot of good for their brothers. Others not so much. The same can be said for many things.
losing battle with this bunch, baw
Posted on 9/14/23 at 9:02 am to LSUTitan99
But arent they important for Safety?
Posted on 9/14/23 at 9:23 am to TDTOM
Glad I am.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 9:28 am to bdavids09
Nope. I have a ton of non-union sites that are just as safe, if not more so
Posted on 9/14/23 at 9:28 am to LSUTitan99
Frick unions. I will never buy a union made vehicle.
Posted on 9/14/23 at 9:28 am to LSUTitan99
The same evils that make unions necessary are the ones that make them bad. Corporate greed and worker abuse are why unions formed. Union leaders’ greed and workers who abuse their privileges are why they suck. People suck and this is why we can’t have nice things.
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