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Started By
Message
re: The math for buying a home no longer works, per WSJ
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:52 pm to Chucktown_Badger
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:52 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:you know damn well the average plummer in sheboygan isn't making 40/hour but regardless, this is a micro solution to a macro problem
I just randomly picked plumber and looked up the average salaries on Indeed.
Houston: $28.38/hour
Sheboygan: $39.21/hour
quote:
Since when did everyone starting their adult life have a "right" to everything? Simple fact is you don't have a right to a six-figure job, you don't have a right to a cheap house in a highly desirable city or area. You earn the right to those things.
no one is saying that
1
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:54 pm to 904
quote:
I think it's just responding to boomers' expectations who think anyone born in the 80s or later is lazy if they don't have a house and a family by their late 20's, and that it's possible for everyone if they just "save more". That's what this article is about. The math doesn't work out anymore.
No generation is without challenges, and the younger generation does have a legitimate gripe in a lot of ways. I understand and recognize that. A nuanced, detailed discussion on just how fricked the next generation will be is probably more appropriate for the PT board than this particular thread.
Some perspective - I'm what they call an "elder millennial". I've moved across the country several times and taken on projects in parts of the world that I never want to return to. I never expected to build a career with the income that I wanted without having to make sacrifices or compromises in other parts of my life - including living in the "uncool" cities or the boring parts of town.
Now I have a great home exactly where I want to be right now. Over the years, I got lucky in some ways, and took it in the teeth in others when buying/selling real estate. I had to start with a fixer upper, then to a vinyl box, then to tiny Chicago bungalow knockoff before I was ready to buy a truly desirable, high quality home that's convenient to our employers.
So forgive me for being a little dismissive of a generation who are unwilling to accept the same realities that everyone else had to deal with when buying a home: balancing affordability with safety, quality, convenience, amenities, commute times....and not getting too attached to any of it because you may have to sell it all and move again later.
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 1:56 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:55 pm to GreatLakesTiger24
quote:
no one is saying that
The article literally compares the median income in America to the median home price in America as an expression to the hardships of homeownership.
Why would a first time homebuyer at the median income in America expect to buy a home better (more expensive) than 49.99% of the other homes sold that year?
Everyone who gets in a tizzy over that statistic is doing exactly what you are explicitly saying no one is doing.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:05 pm to dewster
quote:the realities are not really the same though. this is a much more violent, run down, diverse, and populated country than it was just a few decades ago. the average pubic school was much better as well.
same realities that everyone else had to deal with when buying a home: balancing affordability with safety, quality, convenience, amenities, commute times...
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:06 pm to dewster
quote:
So forgive me for being a little dismissive of a generation who are unwilling to accept the same realities that everyone else had to deal with when buying a home: balancing affordability with safety, quality, convenience, amenities, commute times....and not getting too attached to any of it because you may have to sell it all and move again later.
Which sounds fair on its face, but falls a little flat when the “reasonable” suggestions are to live in a trailer in a rural area and commute 2-3 hours per day (with normal traffic).
There’s a large gulf between living in an “uncool” area of town or a “boring” city and living amongst farmland.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:10 pm to dewster
quote:
No generation is without challenges, and the younger generation does have a legitimate gripe in a lot of ways.
The problem with economics and the problem with "life" boils down to the problem of $0.
The very nature of inflation punishes those with $0.
18 year olds cast out to find their lot in life are at $0.
22 year old graduates cast out to find their lot in life are at $0 (or negative based on loans).
The "government class" who are stuck in multi-generational poverty (otherwise they lose their "benefits" are always at or near $0).
Of course they get pissed when it costs $5 for a basic meal at a fast food place.
Of course they get pissed at the cost of owning a car.
Of course they get pissed at the cost of non-government housing.
The good news for the 18 and 22 year old is that they are making exponentially more than their parents and grandparents.
Where it was a struggle for my parents to save $20,000 above $0, I had a much easier time.
And where it was a struggle for me to save $100,000 above $0, my kids will have a much easier time.
But the multigenenational families in poverty? The government policies crush them.
The 18 and 22 year olds without the foresight to see that their plight was the same as me vs my parents and the same as my parents vs my grandparents... they will be pissed and vocal about it too.
It is always hard to be poor.
(But how many poor people have air conditioning? How many poor people have cell phones and TV? How many poor people have entertainment subscription plans? How many poor people are getting a bachelor's degree?).
My 16 year old daughter is making $14/hour at WalMart
My 18 year old daughter manages a retail food establishment.
My 19 year old son makes $18/hour with overtime as a trainer.
The only people who truly should be pissed are those stuck on the government.
They are the only ones truly suffering from the problem of $0.
The rest of this country likes to hear ourselves bitch and feel importantly oppressed.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:11 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
but falls a little flat when the “reasonable” suggestions are to live in a trailer in a rural area and commute 2-3 hours per day (with normal traffic).
Where did I suggest commuting 2-3 hours per day?
If you can only afford to live that far out...maybe moving to an entirely different metro area should be considered. I've done that 4 times. It sucks but it's not the end of the world.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:14 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Which sounds fair on its face, but falls a little flat when the “reasonable” suggestions are to live in a trailer in a rural area and commute 2-3 hours per day (with normal traffic).
There are townhomes in a ritzy area north of Atlanta selling for $175k to $240k.
If you can't find a first time homebuyer property, you aren't smart enough to own it anyway.
With the advent of the internet, it is so simple.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:14 pm to dewster
quote:
No generation is without challenges, and the younger generation does have a legitimate gripe in a lot of ways. I understand and recognize that. A nuanced, detailed discussion on just how fricked the next generation will be is probably more appropriate for the PT board than this particular thread.
Some perspective - I'm what they call an "elder millennial". I've moved across the country several times and taken on projects in parts of the world that I never want to return to. I never expected to build a career with the income that I wanted without having to make sacrifices or compromises in other parts of my life - including living in the "uncool" cities or the boring parts of town.
Now I have a great home exactly where I want to be right now. Over the years, I got lucky in some ways, and took it in the teeth in others when buying/selling real estate. I had to start with a fixer upper, then to a vinyl box, then to tiny Chicago bungalow knockoff before I was ready to buy a truly desirable, high quality home that's convenient to our employers.
So forgive me for being a little dismissive of a generation who are unwilling to accept the same realities that everyone else had to deal with when buying a home: balancing affordability with safety, quality, convenience, amenities, commute times....and not getting too attached to any of it because you may have to sell it all and move again later.
Agreed. Life is hard. Life has always been hard. Props to you for your sacrifices and congratulations on reaching your ideal situation.
But I guess I'm just a little dismissive of someone who's suggestion to the average American in their 20's or 30's in the current market is to buy a few acres an hour from town, throw a single-wide on it, and pretend to be happy, as if that would've been a reasonable thing to say to someone two or three decades ago.
Noone is demanding to be within walking distance of a Nobu, people just want to be in proximity to their peers with an affordable family-friendly home in a safe neighborhood while not have to spend 2+ hours of their day commuting to and from work or other places of interest. It's not an outlandish idea.
edit: like 3 others have beat me to this post
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 2:16 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:15 pm to Upperdecker
(no message)
This post was edited on 3/13/24 at 11:53 am
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:17 pm to meansonny
quote:
Why would a first time homebuyer at the median income in America expect to buy a home better (more expensive) than 49.99% of the other homes sold that year?
I paid $185,000 for my first house. The median home price in the US at the time is $276,600.
Looking back I probably should have found an even cheaper house.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:17 pm to dewster
quote:There was a video I watched earlier referencing the difference between self-sufficiency in college 40-50 years ago and now and how it is simply impossible.
No generation is without challenges, and the younger generation does have a legitimate gripe in a lot of ways. I understand and recognize that. A nuanced, detailed discussion on just how fricked the next generation will be is probably more appropriate for the PT board than this particular thread.
The world has changed and exorbitant debt is generally the only way to survive, unlike the previous decades, and it has hamstrung millennials and is hamstringing the younger generations.
The housing market is simply one more cherry on the shite sundae.
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:18 pm to Steadyhands
quote:
Homes don't dictate the income needed. Income dictates the home which you can afford.
I completely disagree. Where you buy is just as important as what you buy. And where people want to buy is the whole point of this thread. Take SELA right now. Even the DR Horton communities are running in the high $200s in decent areas.
Our first house was in a subdivision just outside Hammond. It was a small house, starter home. I paid $145000 in 2008. I sold in 2020 for $145500. The person that bought it sold it last year for $230000. I can’t imagine paying $230k for that house. As a young couple paying 7-8% on a mortgage, we couldn’t have afforded that house. And this was a pretty basic 1200 sf spec home in Tangi.
And that’s the whole point. This is a way bigger deal than people are making it out to be. Because rent isn’t better anywhere either. And that makes people immobile, and will hamper economic development. What are people supposed to do if they can’t find a affordable place to live anywhere near their place of work?
This isn’t some “get off my lawn and don’t buy houses above your station” issue. Sometimes I think the OT is so out of touch with reality it’s maddening.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:23 pm to Steadyhands
quote:
Don't buy houses you can't afford and that are over priced, and this current income to cost ratio wouldn't exist.
incorrect. People that CAN afford houses are buying them and then either renovating and flipping them or renting them out.
The market won't fix itself because the landlords can just pass the increased prices off to their renters by raising the rent to match the market.
IDK how you legislate against that considering we live in a free society but somehow making families that want use a home as a primary residence needs to take precedent over landlords. It won't happen naturally cuz the landlords offer cash at or above asking price and average families get priced out.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:29 pm to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
Well, the math for renting is worse.
I know. I always thought about moving closer to work, but renting always turned me off as though I would be setting a pile of money on fire each month. At least with a mortgage you are paying something down that you will own.
But the one benefit about renting and being low income means that many will qualify for section 8 vouchers making the rent more affordable.
I always thought of this instead of just paying these vouchers to people to rent, is why not give the voucher as assistance to a mortgage to where once it’s paid over a term it is paid for and the government can then move on and assist someone else. The family now has an asset.
Right now Section 8 has been a hot bed of real estate prospectors buying up homes some times at inflated prices and turning them into rent homes for section 8 vouchers at inflated rents.
The only one making money in the long run is the person or companies owning the homes instead of the people living in the homes.
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 4:06 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:30 pm to elprez00
quote:
What are people supposed to do if they can’t find a affordable place to live anywhere near their place of work?
This isn’t some “get off my lawn and don’t buy houses above your station” issue. Sometimes I think the OT is so out of touch with reality it’s maddening.
What do you do?
You save money and put a larger down-payment on the home.
Smaller loan. Better interest rate/terms.
That equals a more affordable solution.
Is your next question "how do you save money for a downpayment?"
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:32 pm to meansonny
quote:
Is your next question "how do you save money for a downpayment?"
so how do you save money for a downpayment?
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:37 pm to 904
quote:
so how do you save money for a downpayment?
What are the most popular businesses today with young people?
Whatever they are, don't use them.
Starbucks? Don't use them.
Netflix? Don't use them.
Amazon? Don't use them.
It is amazing at how big these companies get by providing convenience. And then charging for that convenience.
Shocker.
The way to save money is to spend less.
Hell... you can even use your 401k/retirement savings for a down-payment on your first home.
And you'd need another thread to review how to save money on the ownership of a car.
My son saved and bought a $4k Honda. Without full coverage, it is $70/month to insure the vehicle.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:40 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:
Back to renting now in my new city, waiting on those prices to drop
Charleston may be one of the worst value housing markets in the south, if not the country.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:42 pm to meansonny
quote:
What are the most popular businesses today with young people? Whatever they are, don't use them. Starbucks? Don't use them. Netflix? Don't use them. Amazon? Don't use them. It is amazing at how big these companies get by providing convenience. And then charging for that convenience. Shocker. The way to save money is to spend less.
Don’t forget internet plans and buying a new cellphone every two or three years!
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