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Message
re: The Abu Ghraib prison was pretty messed up
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:29 pm to Ace Midnight
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:29 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Frankly - a failure of leadership allowed this frat house environment to flourish.
Almost positive a reserve command group that was not qualified for that mission.
2
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:30 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Whether or not torture works is irrelevant. This wasn’t a case of soldiers trying to torture anyone for information. They had simply gone of the reservation. It’s not like Army reservist E-3s-E-6s are capable of trained to interrogate prisoners anyway. The prison staff had lost all discipline and their leadership was absolutely non-existent. It was Lord of the fricking Flies amongst the unit running that prison. They had lost every ounce of humanity and their NCO’s and officers were part of it. It should be a case study on how not to lead a military unit. The fact that every person that was in a position of leadership in that unit didn’t do prison time is a disgrace.
All this
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:30 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:
Almost positive a reserve command group that was not qualified for that mission.
Irrelevant. There are no special qualifications or training needed to not rape or humiliate people.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:31 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:shite, how about the fact that Charles Graner new wife (Megan Ambuhl) tried to run a web site that attempted to clear him of his crimes.
The fact that every person that was in a position of leadership in that unit didn’t do prison time is a disgrace.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:34 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
Since we are discussing the Iraq/Afghan war. Do any of you have an opinion on the Maywand District murders?
A few months ago, I watched the documentary "The Kill Team" on amazon. I vaguely remember hearing about it in the national news. The documentary was pretty interesting.
A few months ago, I watched the documentary "The Kill Team" on amazon. I vaguely remember hearing about it in the national news. The documentary was pretty interesting.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:34 pm to JBeam
quote:
shite, how about the fact that Charles Graner new wife (Megan Ambuhl) tried to run a web site that attempted to clear him of his crimes.
Did she include all the arse beatings and threats to his first wife along with slipping razor blades in inmates food while he was a PA prison guard? This guy is a gigantic POS.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:35 pm to carhartt
quote:
The worst thing that happened at Abu Ghraib was the guards were dumb enough to take pics. If you’re gonna do stupid shite don’t take pics. And for the love of God, don’t email them or post them on the internet.
that was the worst thing and just stupid shite, huh?
it was later found that just over 60% of these civilian detainees were deemed non-threats. Legit innocent people were confined, tortured and raped for months on end.
This post was edited on 11/6/17 at 6:10 pm
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:35 pm to JBeam
I’ll have to research that one
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:40 pm to JBeam
quote:Sounds like the Army let a psycho, who happened to be a strong leader, be in charge of a bunch of impressionable young soldiers who were away from home in stressful situation for the first time.
Since we are discussing the Iraq/Afghan war. Do any of you have an opinion on the Maywand District murders?
A few months ago, I watched the documentary "The Kill Team" on amazon. I vaguely remember hearing about it in the national news. The documentary was pretty interesting.
It’s not like one squad of 10-12 dudes would happen to be full of psychopaths. The Staff Sergeant convinced them it was okay to do and probably threatened them with punishment if they didn’t go along. Looks like one of them was brave enough to step forward.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:41 pm to redstick13
After his parole ended in 2014. They both decided to keep their mouths shut and have repeatedly declined interviews.
Megan isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch. Especially if she can't see that Charles is fricking insane.
Megan isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch. Especially if she can't see that Charles is fricking insane.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:43 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:It's implied in the documentary that the Staff Sergeant openly told one of the guys that if he didn't go along with what the rest of the unit was doing. That he would end up "disappearing" soon.
The Staff Sergeant convinced them it was okay to do and probably threatened them with punishment if they didn’t go along. Looks like one of them was brave enough to step forward.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:45 pm to JBeam
Yeah that one sounds more like the proverbial bad apple that slipped through cracks as opposed to some sort of widespread problem with the military. Abu Ghraib is much more troubling to me because of frequency, duration and how out in the open in front of numerous NCOs and officers the conduct was.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:34 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:
Almost positive a reserve command group that was not qualified for that mission.
The MPs were essentially all reservists. Karpinski served 10 years in the active army.
al-Jamadi was killed by a CIA interrogator and a civilian contractor.
In defense of the MP organization (not defending the individuals, mind you), they often take their cues from the MI folks. Pappas wasn't a reservist. Fast wasn't a reservist (and she walked away with nary a scratch).
Heck, I should write a book - I had troops who went to Abu Ghraib immediately after the abuse period. Jay Bybee was one of my law school professors. Bad, bad situation all the way around.
Like My Lai, Abu Ghraib gave every decent, patriotic American soldier who went over there an undeserved black eye.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:40 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
It’s not like Army reservist E-3s-E-6s are capable of trained to interrogate prisoners anyway.
Tap the brakes - I had some E-4 and E-5 national guard interrogators that I would put up against the best of the best. Extraordinary. One in particular, ended up working for a contractor and the CIA at AG and other places after the abuse period. His military career never took off because of BMI issues.
I had another troop that I called, "A war crime waiting to happen."
(He became a lawyer. This is where leadership can make a difference, had I ever deployed with him, for real, there would have been extra eyes on him.) Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:55 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:Is that what happened here? Is that documented? Not that it matters really, I don’t give a shite whether it’s MI or CIA Delta Force ninjas with throwing stars giving the cues, there’s zero excuse for what happened there and everyone involved is a spineless coward.
In defense of the MP organization (not defending the individuals, mind you), they often take their cues from the MI folks.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:57 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:Its not a Ac vs RC issue, it was just a fricked up unit from the top down. The commmanding officer, 1st SGT and a lot of NCOS should’ve gone to prison.
Tap the brakes - I had some E-4 and E-5 national guard interrogators that I would put up against the best of the best.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 5:08 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Whether or not torture works is irrelevant. This wasn’t a case of soldiers trying to torture anyone for information. They had simply gone of the reservation. It’s not like Army reservist E-3s-E-6s are capable of trained to interrogate prisoners anyway. The prison staff had lost all discipline and their leadership was absolutely non-existent. It was Lord of the fricking Flies amongst the unit running that prison. They had lost every ounce of humanity and their NCO’s and officers were part of it. It should be a case study on how not to lead a military unit. The fact that every person that was in a position of leadership in that unit didn’t do prison time is a disgrace.
agreed 100% I'm just speaking to the "get info by any means necessary" comment.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 5:34 pm to Volvagia
quote:
A sizable portion of immates were innocent.
Describe sizable portion...
I was there.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 5:46 pm to touchdownjeebus
quote:We we’re rounding up military aged males by the bushel during that part of the war. I’m willing to bet a lot we’re innocent and the majority were nothing more than poor out of work Iraqi soldiers who would plant an IED or take a few pot shots at Americans for a few bucks. Hardly hardcore “terrorists.” Insurgents and insurgent sympathizers to be sure, but not terrorists.
Describe sizable portion...
I was there.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 6:00 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
Majority?
Nah, you’re wrong there. I will say that we spent a lot of time weeding through plenty of people that had nothing to do with the insurgency, and there were plenty of guys who would shoot a mortar for a few bucks, but had no axe to grind.
Nah, you’re wrong there. I will say that we spent a lot of time weeding through plenty of people that had nothing to do with the insurgency, and there were plenty of guys who would shoot a mortar for a few bucks, but had no axe to grind.
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