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Message
re: Suppose you discovered there is no afterlife
Posted on 9/13/25 at 2:00 pm to N2cars
Posted on 9/13/25 at 2:00 pm to N2cars
No that really has nothing to do with what I said, and both have evolved over time. Wahhabism is not the default state of Islam.
They were more advanced than Western Christians for 500+ years for a reasons
Today there is clearly no comparison.
They were more advanced than Western Christians for 500+ years for a reasons
Today there is clearly no comparison.
0
Posted on 9/13/25 at 2:45 pm to fightin tigers
quote:
When I discovered that it made me a better person.
How did you discover this?
Posted on 9/13/25 at 2:51 pm to prplhze2000
quote:I can teach you , but need tuition first , 100BTC here…
Suppose you discovered there is no afterlife
How would that affect your morality, how you live your life?
3J9xvXMeLYMGcFFHW2QJtQQd8b3rqJE2mX
Posted on 9/13/25 at 2:55 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
afterlife
6 feet underground in a casket or 5 feet above in an urn.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 2:57 pm to ultratiger89
100% of Christians believe in an afterlife, 83% doesnt even make sense
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Christianity has been used by countless other societies to justify racism, including American Christians using it to justify slavery.
Or are we going to do the Communist thing and say that wasn't real Christianity?
LOL.
American Christians also opposed slavery.
Turns out, figuring this out is a pretty simple test.
And you can use it to check all kinds of things.
What you do is, you look at what the founder/s of the idea said. If the people downstream from that are acting in accordance with the idea, then they are followers. And if not, they aren't really followers. Or they at least are not following the leader with respect to certain specific actions.
You can do this with fascism, communism, capitalism, all kinds of religions, legal theories, scientific hypothesis,...all sorts of stuff.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:23 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
LOL.
American Christians also opposed slavery.
Sure. Did you read his question and what he was responding to?
quote:
What you do is, you look at what the founder/s of the idea said. If the people downstream from that are acting in accordance with the idea, then they are followers. And if not, they aren't really followers. Or they at least are not following the leader with respect to certain specific actions.
After Jesus died Christianity went kind of nuts all over the place.
Compare modern Catholicism to pre-Reformation Catholicism to Ethiopian Christianity to Gnostic Christianity of the early Roman periods.
Which is to be expected with a religion that's 2000 years old.
None of this has anything to do with what was being discussed, mind you.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:26 pm to SlowFlowPro
Slow, what would you change if the afterlife was proved sufficiently as well as the rules to get there? For this thought exercise we'll assume Christianity is the right rulebook.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:32 pm to GRTiger
I'd follow whichever sect of Christianity was found to be correct in describing that path to that afterlife. It would be silly for anyone not to do so, at that point.
*ETA: follow may need to include or be replaced by believe. That's probably more respectful for that hypothetical
*ETA: follow may need to include or be replaced by believe. That's probably more respectful for that hypothetical
This post was edited on 9/13/25 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:40 pm to SlowFlowPro
Would you have to change anything besides going to church? Take away the Christianity part if it helps.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:43 pm to GRTiger
Sure whatever would be the rules. Again, it would be silly, at that point, not to.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
Can I ask sincerely if you don't understand the response I'm trying to garner, or if you do and are choosing to avoid it?
Eta
Let's back it up with this, what informs your morals presently?
Eta
Let's back it up with this, what informs your morals presently?
This post was edited on 9/13/25 at 3:46 pm
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:46 pm to jnethe1
quote:I understand you feel strongly, but what you’ve written isn’t really an argument. You’re just trying to redefine disbelief out of existence. That may be comforting for you, but it’s not persuasive to anyone who isn’t already in lockstep with your worldview.
The idea that there is no God is incredibly stupid. People don’t actually believe there is no God, nor that there is no afterlife. Instead they want to live in sin, and they lie to themselves about there being a God to help themselves cope with the inevitable consequences they will experience.
Philosophers from Epicurus to Sartre, and traditions like Buddhism and Confucianism, have demonstrated that ethical systems without gods or afterlives not only exist but thrive. To conclude they all just “wanted to live in sin” requires either ignoring or being plain ignorant of millennia of history and moral philosophy.
And one more thing. If you’re right that everyone secretly believes in God, then faith is meaningless. Faith only has value if it’s a choice, not a universal instinct people can’t escape. If belief is hardwired and inevitable, there’s nothing virtuous about holding it. It’s just breathing.
The irony is that by insisting nobody really disbelieves, you've undercut your own theology. You’ve turned your own faith into biological background noise. Something with no merit because it requires no courage, no doubt, and no decision.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 3:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Being adopted by Rome, which then became the West. This isn't unique. Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism are older than Christianity and still survive and are thriving all over Asia. How did Islam survive? It's only a couple hundred years younger than Christianity and is also surviving and thriving.
You misinterpreted my two points and swapped them. Was it intentional? Maybe you aren’t familiar with the concepts of natural law and salvation history.
You made the claim that the Christian conception of morality shares many ideas with other faith systems and also drew from previous religions. I agreed and meant to quickly move on to the related issue by merely mentioning natural law and salvation history as short cuts you’d be familiar with.
But what I meant by that is that Christians believe there is an objective morality and that it is discoverable by humans (natural law plus God’s grace plus the teachings of Jesus and the prophets). This discovery takes a long time, and in some deep ways over many millennia and over many societies (salvation history).
I wasn’t trying to prove Christianity solely by showing that it survived many different cultures and persecutions. Nevertheless, many lesser ideologies have not survived due to their not withstanding the test of logic and time.
quote:I had to make note of the fact that you hilariously sidestepped the 300 years of intense persecution by Rome prior to “being adopted” . Adopted NOT by force, but by being convincingly persuasive and admired!
Being adopted by Rome, which then became the West.
quote:Islam spread and survived by violence and force. It’s an illogical and self-contradictory religion that continues to survive because it taps strongly into clannish ideology.
How did Islam survive? It's only a couple hundred years younger than Christianity and is also surviving and thriving.
quote:This is so ignorant and wrong that it strangely contradicts how offensive it is. I can’t get offended because its just so stupid. First of all, many heresies crop up in the Christian faith over time, and to any extent that there were any Nazis who considered themselves Christian (Hitler and the mani Nazi party members certainly did not!) they were simply deluded. Are you aware of the number of Catholic martyrs at the hands of the Nazis? Edith Stein and Deitrich Bonhoeffer among others? Or that the records of Pope Pious XI were recently released in which it showed definitively he acted as a double agent to oppose Nazi plans and to assist the Jews and the allies?
The decisively Christian Nazi regime? I don't think that's the example you want to use.
The Nazi example is the one I posed to you as one that is diametrically opposed to the Christian moral teachings.
You side-stepped that question. Do YOU find it OBJECTIVELY wrong, since you claim there is no objective morality?
I do. Christians do. We believe in an objective morality.
quote:
Christianity has been used by countless other societies to justify racism, including American Christians using it to justify slavery.
Yes, the Bible was used to justify slavery. HOWEVER, you get this timeline wrong, and it’s important.
NO SOCIETY or religion even questioned slavery. It was considered an undeniable and unquestioned part of human existence. Sometimes, slavery was associated racist attitudes, or with religious affiliation, and other times simply with racial characteristics. Other times it was merely a form of commitment to work in exchange for protection for a period of time or often lifetime. But it was universally accepted and barely questioned.
Until Christians began to question it!!
Initially it was the Quakers and other Protestant sects that pushed for abolition, while other Christians including Catholics defended the practice. That’s when the debate ensued and the Bible was cited in defense of the practice. Fortunately, and with much grace from God, the Christian West ended slavery and pushed for its abolition worldwide.
To this day, Islam does not condemn slavery (how can it?), but relegates it to the back page so as not to offend the world community.
quote:
*ETA: and for smoothbrains and overly emotive types, that's not ragging on Christianity. Just showing their objective morality hasn't always been so objective. It's a tool that can be corrupted by humans just like they claim non-Christian morality can.
You’re not a smooth brain, but you are often unwise and not smart.
Morality can be objective, even though human understanding of it is limited, often flawed, and tainted by sin. That’s why God used salvation history to bring humans closer to the truth over time.
Furthermore, Christians believe that there is an evil force in the world that is actively trying to deceive people and institutions (powers and principalities, as Christ called them), which work to destroy human understanding of what is good and what is evil. The full revelation has been given, but those clouded by evil or swayed by the devil do not see it or reject the message. There will never be perfection of humans or our societies on this earth. This much was foretold. So the battle for good over evil and the salvation of souls will continue until the end.
I hope you make it. I’m praying for your conversion. I think you’re close.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 4:02 pm to GRTiger
quote:
Can I ask sincerely if you don't understand the response I'm trying to garner
I don't think you understand how confining this hypothetical
quote:
if the afterlife was proved sufficiently as well as the rules to get there
is, in this context.
quote:
what informs your morals presently
I explained this earlier.
quote:
There are 2 levels, societal trial and error and critically analyzing this.
Which is where religions develop their morality (and why there is such overlap, generally), and why these concepts coalesced in kind when we began society way back in Mesopotamia.
Societal trial and error trying to avoid disruption/conflict in society has formed much of our concept of morality. You see this a lot more in the ancient religions, even Judaism (The Covenant, the 10 Commandments, etc.) preaches social philosophy more than a philosophical philosophy. Now Jesus, he was different. But that religion was created in Roman times as a counter to Roman life/rule and the institutional rot of Judea/Judaism.
The reason we could get more into the philosophy portion is because we had the rules for society pretty much figured out by Rome. We didn't need religion to tell us not to murder or commit adultery or steal or have incest. Those were social mores and incorporated in legal, not religious systems, by Rome. That's why Jesus preached something on a new level, but even then, he taught a philosophy for the marginalized promoting and evangelizing that status. The impact as a mirror for society was still there, just on another level of human development.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 4:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I don't think you understand how confining this hypothetical
It also seems to be a bit your inability to remove your blinders as a black and white mind vs creative thinking. My hypothetical shouldn't confine your thoughts.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 4:07 pm to northshorebamaman
quote:
I understand you feel strongly, but what you’ve written isn’t really an argument. You’re just trying to redefine disbelief out of existence. That may be comforting for you, but it’s not persuasive to anyone who isn’t already in lockstep with your worldview.
I was an atheist most of my life.
quote:
Philosophers from Epicurus to Sartre, and traditions like Buddhism and Confucianism, have demonstrated that ethical systems without gods or afterlives not only exist but thrive.
Can you name one in existence today?
quote:
And one more thing. If you’re right that everyone secretly believes in God, then faith is meaningless. Faith only has value if it’s a choice, not a universal instinct people can’t escape. If belief is hardwired and inevitable, there’s nothing virtuous about holding it. It’s just breathing.
No one on this earth is denied the truth. Many choose to not believe either due to feeling that God has abandoned them, or an attempt to reassure themselves that there will not be consequences for their behaviors.
quote:
The irony is that by insisting nobody really disbelieves, you've undercut your own theology. You’ve turned your own faith into biological background noise. Something with no merit because it requires no courage, no doubt, and no decision.
There is not a person on this earth that does not know the story of Jesus. There is not a person born on this earth that was not created in Gods image. When a person is experiencing their darkest hour they will call to God, atheist or not.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 4:08 pm to fightin tigers
quote:
Stopped making me believe I could just ask for forgiveness and be granted it by some magical ghost in the sky.
Wow that’s dumb.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 4:10 pm to yakster
quote:
Just where do you think morality comes from? Did it evolve along with mankind as some would believe? When exactly did the ameba’s triangulate to form an opinion on what is considered right and wrong?
As soon as our ancestors realized that their chances of living long and prosperous lives were better if they collaborated peacefully with each other and leveraged the different talents that each individual brought to the table.
They figured out that establishing a code of conduct was conducive to the success of the group. That would include punishment for those who transgressed. That evolved into having a leadership structure and a system of justice.
It tended to go off the rails once the leaders started believing that they were somehow anointed by a "higher power", and could therefore do as they pleased and become abusive toward their fellow group members.
Posted on 9/13/25 at 4:11 pm to TulsaSooner78
Tyranny doesn't require a higher power. In fact historically it has contradicted the very concept.
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