re: SBA loans to churches

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Do you know what tf you are talking about, or are you just pulling reasonable sounding shite out of your arse?

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You tell me. You are posting emotional responses regarding your opinion of churches and I am providing factual information regarding the PPP program referenced in the article.

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I'm just trying to decide the credibility of your unsupported statements

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Which unsupported statements?

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I'm simply asking are you simply a reasonable, sharp guy, with very little knowledge about this particular topic, or are you in a position to have specific knowledge about sba loans, foia requests, etc?

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I have info about SBA loan and FOIA requests.

You?

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but isn't one of the primary goals of the SBA funding intended to keep people working and paid? This could help janitorial staff, teachers, secretaries, cafeteria workers, etc. stay on the payroll instead of being furloughed.

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This is exactly right. If it was a legal job, should be protected under the program

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And you've mischaracterized my objectivity. I absolutely think that these loans should be available to churches, just like they apply to other nonprofit organizations.

That wasn't the discussion though.

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Sorry I mischaracterized your thoughts. It has been part of the discussion in this thread though.

By the way, you didn't answer my question about your knowledge of the PPP or FOIA?

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Is anyone really going to try to convince themselves that the Catholic Church is non profit?

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It's hard to do here but I'll play devil's advocate.....the thing here is that the priests don't live the high life from the money they make from the church being a priest.....I've seen the financials at my church. 35% (ish) of the collection money goes to the diocese. 35% goes to pay debts. A small amount goes to pay salaries and the rest goes directly to charity.

The way that priests live the high life is from gifts. The pastor at my church is given a brand new car every 2 years by the same family in our parish. He eats at a different families house just about every night and when he doesn't he has a personal chef provided by a parishioner. The priests live the high life off the backs of parishioners. That is a fact. So after all that what little salary he does make from being the priest/pastor/head of the school is all gravy....he can do whatever he wants with it...ours likes to go to Toledo Bend about once a month and likes to take about 3-4 cruises per year (who the hell knows why....I've told him myself he should just take 2 2 week long trips to the Bahamas).

Well, the SBA paperwork reveals what they generally disclose and don't disclose regarding SBA loan and applicant information in response to FOIA requests. Thinking they will reveal more specific info on churches than they do other loan applicants because they aren't typically viewed in market competition is highly unlikely.

Feel free to try though.

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It's hard to do here but I'll play devil's advocate.....the thing here is that the priests don't live the high life from the money they make from the church being a priest.....I've seen the financials at my church. 35% (ish) of the collection money goes to the diocese. 35% goes to pay debts. A small amount goes to pay salaries and the rest goes directly to charity.

The way that priests live the high life is from gifts. The pastor at my church is given a brand new car every 2 years by the same family in our parish. He eats at a different families house just about every night and when he doesn't he has a personal chef provided by a parishioner. The priests live the high life off the backs of parishioners. That is a fact. So after all that what little salary he does make from being the priest/pastor/head of the school is all gravy....he can do whatever he wants with it...ours likes to go to Toledo Bend about once a month and likes to take about 3-4 cruises per year (who the hell knows why....I've told him myself he should just take 2 2 week long trips to the Bahamas).

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I have no issue with those types of financials.

I do have a problem with churches towards the other side of the spectrum. I've also had access to the financials of a church. This church was organized like a family business, with the preacher, and his family, having complete control of the corporation. This church had several sketchy land deals. Almost all of the family members were paid a salary by the church. They had an 18yo family member with an llc that contracted with the church at a premium for marketing services.

Those sketchy land deals included a purchase of property by the church at a premium price, and a private purchase by a family member, with the same seller less than 6 months later, at a ridiculously low price. We can only speculate what occurred, but I'd be willing to bet on what I think happened.

Good churches are good and transparent, without being forced to be transparent. Bad churches are bad, and they love being able to completely hide what they do.

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Well, the SBA paperwork reveals what they generally disclose and don't disclose regarding SBA loan and applicant information in response to FOIA requests. Thinking they will reveal more specific info on churches than they do other loan applicants because they aren't typically viewed in market competition is highly unlikely.

Feel free to try though.

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I posted the element that I would try to attack if I were to make the request, and you completely ignored it.

I get it. You read the application, and, in your mind, it makes you an expert.

I would be wasting my time having this discussion with you. I was hoping that you were the guy, but you are not.

It's not personal; I'm not attacking your intelligence. You're obviously a sharp guy, with very reasonable opinions, but you're not the expert, that I hoped you were, on this novel topic.

Eta: I understand how the financial information is "generally" protected from requests; however, the sba doesn't generally provide loans to churches. There are specific rules and elements to these exceptions, and, they may or may not, be applicable to our new church loan situation. Also, even if they are found to apply similarly, can you imagine the argument that an attorney would have to make to try to show that releasing certain information would substantially harm the church's competitive position.

Even if it applies, a church might say "frick that" in real life.

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Good churches are good and transparent, without being forced to be transparent. Bad churches are bad, and they love being able to completely hide what they do.

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The heirarchy inherent in the Catholic Church is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's a good thing in that no particular pastor has the financial control that you see in Baptist / non-denominational churches.

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I've made 100's of foia requests. I've got government entities that just give me information, bc they know I'll get it anyway. However, like everybody else, I've never tried to gain access to a church's financial information via an sba loan.

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We probably need a new thread, but I'm really curious what you do with this information. Are you some kind of a media member or a watchdog? And what are you trying to accomplish by getting access to a church financials?

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Assuming you are right on its novelty, and I'm not sure you are, by definition there is no expert on the topic.

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I'm not an sba loan expert; that's why I was hoping you were.

Is it normal for churches to get sba loans?

You're a sharp guy. You don't have to continue to make good points and ask the right questions to show it. You're just not the guy I was hoping you were.

I'm being a hypocrite. I hate people that want to be spoon fed, and that's exactly what I was looking for, because I'm not willing to put in the work right now. If I find the right spoon feeder, or decide to spend a few hours researching the topic, I'll let you know. But, we are just spinning our wheels at this point.